Rank the US Presidents

[Weezer]

It was a lie for you to say that I had not pointed it out... I have pointed out through several posts that Forrest did change his attitude toward blacks near the end of his life. He tried to make amends for his involvement with the KKK. He clearly was ashamed of it, because he would usually lie about it when asked to explain it. My point is that is too much to forgive. The KKK is his lasting legacy and we should not be honoring him with statues.

He didn't even found the KKK, so I'm not sure why he gets all the blame for it. He was brought in after the fact as the first Grand Wizard, so named because of his own nickname, "The Wizard of the Saddle". He was not a founding member. But he was a horrible person earlier in his life. And as far as it being "too much to forgive", I'm neither a black person of that time period, nor, more importantly, am I God, so that's not up to me to decide.

 

[BowlBrother85]

He didn't even found the KKK, so I'm not sure why he gets all the blame for it. He was brought in after the fact as the first Grand Wizard, so named because of his own nickname, "The Wizard of the Saddle". He was not a founding member. But he was a horrible person earlier in his life. And as far as it being "too much to forgive", I'm neither a black person of that time period, nor, more importantly, am I God, so that's not up to me to decide.

Well, you are making it sound better than it really was for him. He was anointed to serve as "Grand Wizard" as the Klan was being formed in 1867. It's not fair to call him a "founder", but it is also not accurate to say that he was "brought in after the fact". That doesn't place as much blame on his shoulders as he deserves for his prominent participation in a hate group - which was violent from the outset, despite what some posters here want to believe. Forrest was a horrible person earlier in his life... and he was also a horrible person in 1867. He knew this was wrong... or he wouldn't have lied about it so much later on.

 

[Weezer]

Well, you are making it sound better than it really was for him. He was anointed to serve as "Grand Wizard" as the Klan was being formed in 1867. It's not fair to call him a "founder", but it is also not accurate to say that he was "brought in after the fact". That doesn't place as much blame on his shoulders as he deserves for his prominent participation in a hate group - which was violent from the outset, despite what some posters here want to believe. Forrest was a horrible person earlier in his life... and he was also a horrible person in 1867. He knew this was wrong... or he wouldn't have lied about it so much later on.

The Klan was formed in 1866. NBF was supposedly brought in in 1867 because membership had grown to a point they felt they needed an experienced leader. He also ordered the Klan disbanded at the beginning of 1869.

 

[BowlBrother85]

The Klan was formed in 1866. NBF was supposedly brought in in 1867 because membership had grown to a point they felt they needed an experienced leader. He also ordered the Klan disbanded at the beginning of 1869.

I've read conflicting things on the exact year it was founded... some sources say 1865, and some say 1866 or 1867. The year is not a big deal. He was the first Grand Wizard... and he certainly knew that they were a hate group while he was (at least symbolically) the leader of it. That is indefensible.

 

[AM64]

The Klan was formed in 1866. NBF was supposedly brought in in 1867 because membership had grown to a point they felt they needed an experienced leader. He also ordered the Klan disbanded at the beginning of 1869.

Also the KKK was formed in Pulaski - southern middle TN, and as far as I can tell Forrest was pretty much settled in Memphis - not a few hour drive in those days.

 

[AM64]

I've read conflicting things on the exact year it was founded... some sources say 1865, and some say 1866 or 1867. The year is not a big deal. He was the first Grand Wizard... and he certainly knew that they were a hate group while he was (at least symbolically) the leader of it. That is indefensible.

Easier to defend a group working against Reconstruction than to defend Reconstruction. See that's another thing history has taught us. We used to grind losers of a war into the dust; George Marshall had a different thought that worked far better. Since you and others on the left side of things portray the past as wrong when it disagrees with today's version, I'd expect you to denounce Reconstruction and honor those who opposed it.

 

[Weezer]

Easier to defend a group working against Reconstruction than to defend Reconstruction. See that's another thing history has taught us. We used to grind losers of a war into the dust; George Marshall had a different thought that worked far better. Since you and others on the left side of things portray the past as wrong when it disagrees with today's version, I'd expect you to denounce Reconstruction and honor those who opposed it.

I can't and won't defend what the Klan did. So I disagree with you on that point.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Easier to defend a group working against Reconstruction than to defend Reconstruction. See that's another thing history has taught us. We used to grind losers of a war into the dust; George Marshall had a different thought that worked far better. Since you and others on the left side of things portray the past as wrong when it disagrees with today's version, I'd expect you to denounce Reconstruction and honor those who opposed it.

This looks like an attempt to sanitize the KKK's main objective, which was the reestablishment of white supremacy through Democratic victories in state legislatures across the south.

 

[Rickyvol77]

Yeah well those rich plantation owners shouldn't have tried to overthrow the USA. Screwed a lot up, thats for sure

“Overthrow the USA”. Jesus you have the intellect of a 6 year old

 

[AM64]

I can't and won't defend what the Klan did. So I disagree with you on that point.

When an overpowering force tries to take everything away, people turn to guerilla tactics. Don't back dangerous animals (including people) in a corner; they tend to come out swinging, and I don't blame them. Reconstruction was punishment by bullies - too bad those doing the punishing got off lightly.

 

[Weezer]

When an overpowering force tries to take everything away, people turn to guerilla tactics. Don't back dangerous animals (including people) in a corner; they tend to come out swinging, and I don't blame them. Reconstruction was punishment by bullies - too bad those doing the punishing got off lightly.

The Klan used violence against former slaves to prevent them from voting. Not just beatings, but lynchings. Nothing justifies that. "Reconstruction was unfair" or even my own belief that the Southern states had a right to secede justifies beating and killing people, or even enslaving people, because of the color of their skin. Slavery was abhorrent. So nothing justifies the Klan.

 

[JOEY'S ALL VOL !!!]

Same thing

*sigh*

 

[Rickyvol77]

*sigh*

Sad thing is that she really believes that

 

[ClearwaterVol]

The Klan was formed in 1866. NBF was supposedly brought in in 1867 because membership had grown to a point they felt they needed an experienced leader. He also ordered the Klan disbanded at the beginning of 1869.

He was actually brought in to expand the ranks further with his fame and be the first leader. His presence greatly expanded the KKK's sphere of influence.

 

[landscapingvol]

He did desire it. He campaigned for the nomination for 2 years, built up political capital and came to the convention with a campaign team. How is that not wanting the nomination?

The Republican Party under Lincoln and before him was inconsequential. The only reason he won was due to the Democrats splitting the vote. He knew this that doesn't make him a power hungry tyrant. He had to create a semblance of a base in order to have any shot at winning. In several of his personal letters to Mary Todd, he expressed his hesitancy to be President and viewed it more as a duty than a career goal. His actions as the President, outside of the Civil War, show someone who wanted to quickly rebuild the Union and move past the Civil War. Was he too lenient or too harsh? That can be debated your characterization as a power thirsty tyrant isn't accurate.

 

[hog88]

The Republican Party under Lincoln and before him was inconsequential. The only reason he won was due to the Democrats splitting the vote. He knew this that doesn't make him a power hungry tyrant. He had to create a semblance of a base in order to have any shot at winning. In several of his personal letters to Mary Todd, he expressed his hesitancy to be President and viewed it more as a duty than a career goal. His actions as the President, outside of the Civil War, show someone who wanted to quickly rebuild the Union and move past the Civil War. Was he too lenient or too harsh? That can be debated your characterization as a power thirsty tyrant isn't accurate.

The guy worked for 2 years to secure the R nomination, someone that doesn't really want the job doesn't do that. So either he coveted the job and wanted it or he was a self aggrandizing narcissist that thought it was he was the only answer.

 

[landscapingvol]

They should have already left and they didn't fight back and no one was hurt.

I won't dispute that but you must also acknowledge that many in the South did not see a peaceful resolution to the issues at hand principally the pressing issue of state's rights and sovereignty. The South was destined to eventually move past an agricultural based society and slavery would have ended naturally regardless but Lincoln felt the nation was better served united. At the end of the day, Lincoln was a politician and viewed many issues through a political lens especially when it came to slavery. He could have taken a different stance on slavery, one similar to Douglas, and allowed it to naturally run its course but he didn't. Looking back, he wasn't wrong to fight to maintain the Union and end slavery. Could have it been handled differently? Probably, but he genuinely felt the nation was headed towards complete collapse. In the end, it cost him his life right or wrong.

 

[landscapingvol]

The guy worked for 2 years to secure the R nomination, someone that doesn't really want the job doesn't do that. So either he coveted the job and wanted it or he was a self aggrandizing narcissist that thought it was he was the only answer.

Name an "awe shucks, gosh" President who didn't have an ego. It's an essential qualification but that doesn't make them a tyrant.

 

[hog88]

Name an "awe shucks, gosh" President who didn't have an ego. It's an essential qualification but that doesn't make them a tyrant.

Lincoln's actions after assuming office shows that he was a tyrant. Threatening justices with arrest if they ruled against him, ignoring SCOTUS rulings, jailing dissenters, how are these not actions of a tyrant?

 

[landscapingvol]

Lincoln's actions after assuming office shows that he was a tyrant. Threatening justices with arrest if they ruled against him, ignoring SCOTUS rulings, jailing dissenters, how are these not actions of a tyrant?

Desperate times call for desperate measures and his case, the end truly did justify the means but I agree in different circumstances those actions would be viewed much differently. I also don't blame FDR for the internment camps

 

[hog88]

Desperate times call for desperate measures and his case, the end truly did justify the means but I agree in different circumstances those actions would be viewed much differently. I also don't blame FDR for the internment camps

No the ends do not justify the means, that is how dictators are made. Our constitution doesn't have a clause "all of this can be tossed out the window in desperate times and 1 man can make the decisions."

FDR should have been impeached for the internment camps. We are a nation of laws and liberty or we aren't.

 

[GroverCleveland]

No the ends do not justify the means, that is how dictators are made. Our constitution doesn't have a clause "all of this can be tossed out the window in desperate times and 1 man can make the decisions."

FDR should have been impeached for the internment camps. We are a nation of laws and liberty or we aren't.

Sitting here with 2021 hindsight and being fairly well read on WWII, the pre- and post- times around it, I agree that what FDR did was wrong. But I cannot issue an absolute condemnation on it, although I despise that bastard with regards to what he started in this country with regards to the New Deal.

In 1941, the bulk of the Pacific Fleet was at the bottom of Pearl Harbor, a tiny group of Hawaiians of Japanese descent or immigration did spy for Japan. Again, VERY few. People were not making rational decisions about some things and what was done to the Japanese Americans makes me grind my teeth. But I was not in their shoes and having to make those decisions.

I absolutely and unequivocally admire the Japanese-Americans. The 442nd Regimental Combat Team, many who were volunteers from the internment camps, was the most decorated unit in the US Army of WWII, seeing heavy combat in Italy against the Germans. Their nickname was "Some Americans from Hawaii" and their patriotism to this country in spite of their treatment cannot be questioned. At least in my presence.

 

[hog88]

Sitting here with 2021 hindsight and being fairly well read on WWII, the pre- and post- times around it, I agree that what FDR did was wrong. But I cannot issue an absolute condemnation on it, although I despise that bastard with regards to what he started in this country with regards to the New Deal.

In 1941, the bulk of the Pacific Fleet was at the bottom of Pearl Harbor, a tiny group of Hawaiians of Japanese descent or immigration did spy for Japan. Again, VERY few. People were not making rational decisions about some things and what was done to the Japanese Americans makes me grind my teeth. But I was not in their shoes and having to make those decisions.

I absolutely and unequivocally admire the Japanese-Americans. The 442nd Regimental Combat Team, many who were volunteers from the internment camps, was the most decorated unit in the US Army of WWII, seeing heavy combat in Italy against the Germans. Their nickname was "Some Americans from Hawaii" and their patriotism to this country in spite of their treatment cannot be questioned. At least in my presence.

There were German immigrants that were spying for Germany yet FDR didn't consider interning people of German descent. What he did to the Japanese was unforgivable and people trying to justify it (not you) keep the door open for it to happen again with another people.

 

[landscapingvol]

There were German immigrants that were spying for Germany yet FDR didn't consider interning people of German descent. What he did to the Japanese was unforgivable and people trying to justify it (not you) keep the door open for it to happen again with another people.

Occasionally the ends do justify the means, whether we agree with it or not. History has proven that FDR and Lincoln were both correct in fighting the wars in the way in which they were fought. That doesn't mean mistakes weren't made but that doesn't tarnish their entire presidencies. I completely disagree with FDR's economic policies but he was the right leader at the right time for WW2

 

[hog88]

Occasionally the ends do justify the means, whether we agree with it or not. History has proven that FDR and Lincoln were both correct in fighting the wars in the way in which they were fought. That doesn't mean mistakes weren't made but that doesn't tarnish their entire presidencies. I completely disagree with FDR's economic policies but he was the right leader at the right time for WW2

I'm not talking about how the wars were prosecuted, we have been over that. When a nation commits to war turn the dogs lose and win.

The wars and how they treated their own citizens are separate issues and neither can be forgiven or excused. Their actions do tarnish their entire presidencies. Not to mention FDRs teenage girl infatuation with Stalin.