Rank the US Presidents

#201
#201
BowlBrother85 said:
The "problem" occurs when pretentious people, who are desperate for followers and have both a political agenda and a blog, post nonsensical claims and skewed information... and then attract uneducated, gullible and all-too-willing followers - who desperately want to believe that they are truly the enlightened ones in society, while the people who pay to go college are suckers who have fallen under the spell of the evil liberals.

You want to think you are smarter than people such as Jon Meacham, who write books and teach classes for a living. You're not. You have zero sense of self-awareness about you.
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His background reads very liberal. Here's a question? Why do you think a current writer of history can offer a more "correct" version of history than authors who were around closer to the time the history was made? I wonder that every time I see a new biography written by a current author about someone who lived a couple of hundred years ago - particularly when we live in an age during which people seem to feel free to reinterpret even the words used in that time period.

BTW my sense of self-awareness is just different from yours. We obviously come from different backgrounds and different professions, so it's natural that we might see things differently.
 
#203
#203
Tastylicks said:
Yall trying to #cancel Abraham Lincoln now. Sad.

Lincoln freed the slaves, IMO that alone makes him the very best president.
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Lincoln didn’t free the slaves. There were 4 slave holding states in the union and they weren’t freed until after Lincoln’s death. He never even attempted to free them.
 
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#205
#205
BowlBrother85 said:
I would argue 2nd best. He was far from perfect... but there is some irony in how the same people who attack the culture of political correctness, are quick to disparage some cherry-picked writings of Lincoln as being "racist", when all they really were was racially insensitive... over 100 years before political correctness was even a thing.
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Lincoln like most white people at the time were racist and believed whites were the superior race. That’s indisputable.
 
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#206
#206
Weezer said:
I'm casting political motives behind his words and deeds because political motives were behind them. You've chosen to ignore his private writings.
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Lincoln changed the narrative and made ending slavery a cause because at the time the war was extremely unpopular in the north.
 
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#207
#207
BowlBrother85 said:
No $hit. I'm the one who pointed it out. I specifically referred to the year (1869) twice.
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Have you even stopped to consider that after such a bloody war between the states, with the North prevailing, there was no way in hell the SCOTUS renders a different verdict. Would have been interesting if the SCOTUS had a chance to rule before Lincoln resorted to war, but he couldn't risk that.
 
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#209
#209
hog88 said:
Lincoln like most white people at the time were racist and believed whites were the superior race. That’s indisputable.
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True... and I have already said that. My point, is that his feelings evolved. You can not ignore his words in The Gettysburg Address, or his stated belief that black people should have the right of citizenship. Those were not the prevailing sentiments of the time at all.
 
#212
#212
BowlBrother85 said:
True... and I have already said that. My point, is that his feelings evolved. You can not ignore his words in The Gettysburg Address, or his stated belief that black people should have the right of citizenship. Those were not the prevailing sentiments of the time at all.
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Did you know Lincoln's view on voting was only giving the right to black veterans who fought in the Civil War? Look it up. He did not support giving all blacks the right to vote.

Also, going back to Lincoln and the SCOTUS, when Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus, Chief Justice Roger Taney ruled Lincoln lacked the authority to do such a thing. Lincoln's response was to completely ignore the ruling. Five years later, the entire SCOTUS supported the ruling the Chief Justice had made that Lincoln lacked the authority to suspend habeas corpus.
 
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#213
#213
Much of what Lincoln did gets looked over because of the "Great Emancipator" myth that lives to this day. I don't think he was a horrible man. He was elected to office and he faced a dire crisis. Personally, I don't agree with many of the decisions he made in dealing with that crisis, but the North won the war, and JWB made Lincoln a martyr. Honestly, the assassination of Lincoln is what led to him being seen so heroically, IMO.
 
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#214
#214
BowlBrother85 said:
... and you want to say that Lincoln believed in white supremacy, due to some of his writings without considering the possibility that the feelings of someone who grew up in a racist society may have evolved over time. Any analysis of Abraham Lincoln's feelings on black people should include his most famous speech - The Gettysburg Address - which you are either unaware of (that wouldn't surprise me), or you have decided to avoid, because it does not serve your agenda.

As part of that speech were Lincoln's description of the United States as "a nation conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."

Lincoln also advocated for black people to have citizenship at the end of the war... but your superficial and cherry-picked analysis of him would have us believe that he believed in white supremacy? Ignorant.
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Ignores the Hampton Roads conference where Lincoln was willing to negotiate for a continuation of slavery in 1865.
 
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#215
#215
Weezer said:
Much of what Lincoln did gets looked over because of the "Great Emancipator" myth that lives to this day. I don't think he was a horrible man. He was elected to office and he faced a dire crisis. Personally, I don't agree with many of the decisions he made in dealing with that crisis, but the North won the war, and JWB made Lincoln a martyr. Honestly, the assassination of Lincoln is what led to him being seen so heroically, IMO.
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That is ridiculous... but there isn't any point in debating this. It's what you want to believe. You are invested in it.
 
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#217
#217
midnight orange said:
Ignores the Hampton Roads conference where Lincoln was willing to negotiate for a continuation of slavery in 1865.
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This is false. Lincoln was resolved to make the end of slavery a necessary condition for any peace. Lincoln also insisted on immediate reunification and the laying down of Confederate arms before anything else was discussed. In short, you are provably wrong because of how advantageous the Union's position was during the Hampton Roads Conference. Your statement doesn't make any sense. Lincoln did not need to concede any issues to the Confederates. In fact, Robert M.T. Hunter, who was a member of the Confederate delegation even went on record saying that Lincoln offered nothing for the unconditional surrender of the South during that conference in February of 1865... and why would he have? The damn war was basically over.

This is what I've been putting up with in this mindless thread. You post these short and completely false claims as being established facts... but they only take you a minute to post, while it takes me a lot longer to post the facts as a rebuttal. And ultimately, you still cling to your stupid bull $hit anyway. It's a waste of time.
 
#218
#218
BowlBrother85 said:
This is false. Lincoln was resolved to make the end of slavery a necessary condition for any peace. Lincoln also insisted on immediate reunification and the laying down of Confederate arms before anything else was discussed. In short, you are provably wrong because of how advantageous the Union's position was during the Hampton Roads Conference. Your statement doesn't make any sense. Lincoln did not need to concede any issues to the Confederates. In fact, Robert M.T. Hunter, who was a member of the Confederate delegation even went on record saying that Lincoln offered nothing for the unconditional surrender of the South during that conference in February of 1865... and why would he have? The damn war was basically over.

This is what I've been putting up with in this mindless thread. You post these short and completely false claims as being established facts... but they only take you a minute to post, while it takes me a lot longer to post the facts as a rebuttal. And ultimately, you still cling to your stupid bull $hit anyway. It's a waste of time.
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This is from Wikipedia, hardly a deep dive. “Lincoln and Seward reportedly offered some possibilities for compromise on the issue of slavery.”
It is evident that you have no idea of what you’re talking about. You had to look up Hampton Roads to even know what I’m referring to. I would stick with your court historian Jon Meachem books and stay off history threads.
 
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#219
#219
midnight orange said:
This is from Wikipedia, hardly a deep dive. “Lincoln and Seward reportedly offered some possibilities for compromise on the issue of slavery.”
It is evident that you have no idea of what you’re talking about. You had to look up Hampton Roads to even know what I’m referring to. I would stick with your court historian Jon Meachem books and stay off history threads.
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"This is from Wikipedia".... Seriously?

If you trust what you are reading on Wikipedia, then that tells me everything I need to know about your depth of knowledge and how seriously you take researching facts... on pretty much any subject. Anyone can make changes to Wiki. Why don't you give History.com a try? It's a little more reliable than what you will find on Wiki.
 
#221
#221
peaygolf said:
Look it up
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Interesting stuff. He gets a lot of credit for accomplishing his agenda, but its hard to find what exactly he promised in the campaign. Just remember hearing the anecdote about not running in the past. Very surprised to learn he didn't win TN.
 
#222
#222
Tastylicks said:
Eh, I don't think the outcome of the war was ever really in doubt, I could be wrong there, but either way I don't care why. Results are results. He freed the slaves so he has my respect
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In the fall of 1864? It wasn't. A guy above said that Lincoln put the continuation of slavery on the table as late as February of 1865 at Hampton Roads. The damn war was almost over! They argue things which defy common sense, and then act like you're the one with the problem because you don't go along with it.
 
#223
#223
BowlBrother85 said:
"This is from Wikipedia".... Seriously?

If you trust what you are reading on Wikipedia, then that tells me everything I need to know about your depth of knowledge and how seriously you take researching facts... on pretty much any subject. Anyone can make changes to Wiki. Why don't you give History.com a try? It's a little more reliable than what you will find on Wiki.
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You’ve never quoted anything from Wikipedia? You never dispute the facts but you always question the source. I quoted Wikipedia because I can back it. If you wish I will do so.
 
#225
#225
BowlBrother85 said:
In the fall of 1864? It wasn't. A guy above said that Lincoln put the continuation of slavery on the table as late as February of 1865 at Hampton Roads. The damn war was almost over! They argue things which defy common sense, and then act like you're the one with the problem because you don't go along with it.
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“Outside of the notes recorded by Stephens and Campbell, Lincoln’s written correspondence corroborates his willingness to negotiate on the matter of slavery. During this timeframe, Lincoln wrote that he would be willing to leave “slavery to abide by the decisions of judicial tribunals,” and that slavery “shall not stand in the way of peace.”[4] Prominent Seward biographers, including Frederic Bancroft, have also agreed that the Secretary of State assured the commissioners that the South could reject the 13th Amendment. Bancroft wrote that Seward “at least suggested” that the seceded states could “defeat the adoption of the amendment” through a speedy return to the union.[5]”
Hampton Roads: A Twist in the Lincoln Myth | Abbeville Institute
 
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