really?

#101
#101
Vol_4_Life said:
How so? Without a doubt, Gettysburg was a big loss for the Confederacy, with the Army of Northern Virginia suffering roughly 30% casualties in that battle. Still, Lee left Pennsylvania with a large army of still-confident veterans that would fight on for two more years. In fact, the Gettysburg Campaign, to some degree, was a success for Lee, as he procured mountains of foodstuffs while in Pennsylvania. In addition, the month he spent in Pennsylvania gave Virginia farmers time to produce more foodstuffs for the Army of Northern Virginia.

The capture of Atlanta was the final nail in the coffin of the Confederacy. With Lincoln's reelection assured by the fall of Atlanta, the war would be carried through to its inevitable conclusion.
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Wow you are truly one of the finest Southern Mystique apologists I have ever run in to.

:hi:
 
#102
#102
I've read that an aggressive pursuit of Lee after Gettysburg might well have ended the war right there. I guess similar arguments could be made about the aftermath of Antietam.
 
#103
#103
Daddy Gee said:
I've read that an aggressive pursuit of Lee after Gettysburg might well have ended the war right there. I guess similar arguments could be made about the aftermath of Antietam.
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McClellan is as aggressive as Jim Tressel. He held almost 30,000 troops during the Battle of Sharpburg. He was terrified of a counter attack. I mean, you have Lee's plans and the best outcome you can do is a draw?

I think with Meade is was simply that the Army of Potomac had finally beaten Lee and he did not want to risk any thing to change that outcome.
Personally, I believe Lee frightened Meade.
 
#104
#104
OrangeEmpire said:
He wouldn't tell his jacket his plans.

Undoubtably you are going to point to the Valley Campaign. No doubt Jackson's brilliance is seen but he commanded a small force which he could contain.

Jackson given more men in the form of a Corps started to have command problems which we see during the 7 days campaign. Of course, you are probably going to point to fatigue, but there is nothing to dispute the fact that Jackson keeping plans to himself hurt in the pursuit of the overall destruction of the Army of the Potomac.

Any who, Jackson would not take it as long as Lee was alive.

:good!:
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You conveniently ignore Jackson's outstanding performances at Second Manassas, Fredericksburg, and Chancellorsville. The fact is that, although we may speculate, we will never know what kind of an army commander Jackson could have been.
 
#105
#105
BigPapaVol said:
without a true threat to the populace of the Union, the folks casting votes could afford to approach the war as I do a nightly newscast. Some interest, but nothing to really move me. Somebody might barrel through town next week and take every usable item with them, I start pushing for a cessation because the issues driving the war aren't very near and dear to my heart.
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You make a good point. But keep in mind that by August 1864 the Northern populace was becoming increasingly fatigued by the war. The long list of soldiers KIA that appeared in Northern newspapers every week surely must have hit home with Northerners. In Virginia, Grant was bogged down with Lee in front of Petersburg, no closer to capturing Richmond that he had been in May. In suffering over 60,000 casualties in a period of just over one month, he had achieved almost nothing. The capture of Atlanta, however, convinced the North that the war was winnable, perhaps sooner rather than later. Before the fall of Atlanta, Lincoln himself had doubted that he would be reelected.
 
#107
#107
Vol_4_Life said:
You conveniently ignore Jackson's outstanding performances at Second Manassas, Fredericksburg, and Chancellorsville. The fact is that, although we may speculate, we will never know what kind of an army commander Jackson could have been.
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:lolabove:

I don't subscribe to the Southern Mystique.

Second Manassas was a stand up fight in a ditch for an unfinished railroad. Coordination was not needed on the highest level.

Funny how during Fredericksburg that the strongest Union advance was in Jackson's sector. Of course the perfect Jackson was not to blame, his scapegoat was Hill.

Chancellorsivlle? Seriously?
He wasted 6 hours on his trip around the Union army and delayed his attack till he had 2 hours of daylight left.

Even then he did not specifically give his division commanders a clear objective till Hill's division pulled up and Jackson told him that the United States Ford was the objective.

Jackson was a terrific for the role Lee put him in. The only person that would/could take on Lee's plans was Jackson. It was the perfect marriage.

To pretend Jackson was a God of War is silly.
 
#109
#109
Vol_4_Life said:
You make a good point. But keep in mind that by August 1864 the Northern populace was becoming increasingly fatigued by the war. The long list of soldiers KIA that appeared in Northern newspapers every week surely must have hit home with Northerners. In Virginia, Grant was bogged down with Lee in front of Petersburg, no closer to capturing Richmond that he had been in May. In suffering over 60,000 casualties in a period of just over one month, he had achieved almost nothing. The capture of Atlanta, however, convinced the North that the war was winnable, perhaps sooner rather than later. Before the fall of Atlanta, Lincoln himself had doubted that he would be reelected.
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:banghead2:

Right, tell me how Lee replaced those men he lost?
 
#110
#110
OrangeEmpire said:

1.) Foreign help, which Lincoln destroyed with emancipation.
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Wilkes' boarding of the Trent and capture of Mason and Slidell almost took care of that well before then. Apologizing to the British and agreeing to release the two captured Southern commissioners was his first side step around foreign help.
 
#111
#111
NochNoch said:
Wilkes' boarding of the Trent and capture of Mason and Slidell almost took care of that well before then. Apologizing to the British and agreeing to release the two captured Southern commissioners was his first side step around foreign help.
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I disagree, Mason and Slidell to the English public was mute at best. It got press/cartoons for two weeks and was forgotten.

The English public concern was slavery.
 
#112
#112
OrangeEmpire said:
I disagree, Mason and Slidell to the English public was mute at best. It got press/cartoons for two weeks and was forgotten.

The English public concern was slavery.
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Whether or not it was because of public sentiment or political reasons, 10,000+ troops were sent to Canada and the British navy was put on a "war footing" until an apology and the releases were issued.

Best part of that whole scenario was the irony of the British and American governments switiching sides of an issue that they had already fought over during the revolution.
 
#113
#113
NochNoch said:
Whether or not it was because of public sentiment or political reasons, 10,000+ troops were sent to Canada and the British navy was put on a "war footing" until an apology and the releases were issued.

Best part of that whole scenario was the irony of the British and American governments switiching sides of an issue that they had already fought over during the revolution.
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I love talking about the Civil War.... you guys rock!

I wish gsvol was here because he would be telling us how Russia played in to all of this.

Now if we can get the glorious/just cause poster back in here we can continue this beautiful conversation!
 
#114
#114
OrangeEmpire said:
:lolabove:

I don't subscribe to the Southern Mystique.

Second Manassas was a stand up fight in a ditch for an unfinished railroad. Coordination was not needed on the highest level.

Funny how during Fredericksburg that the strongest Union advance was in Jackson's sector. Of course the perfect Jackson was not to blame, his scapegoat was Hill.

Chancellorsivlle? Seriously?
He wasted 6 hours on his trip around the Union army and delayed his attack till he had 2 hours of daylight left.

Even then he did not specifically give his division commanders a clear objective till Hill's division pulled up and Jackson told him that the United States Ford was the objective.

Jackson was a terrific for the role Lee put him in. The only person that would/could take on Lee's plans was Jackson. It was the perfect marriage.

To pretend Jackson was a God of War is silly.
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I am starting to doubt your accuracy, Fords weren't made until about the turn of the century.:crazy:
 
#115
#115
I'm digging for the ones who claim all Southerners were loyal to the 'cause' and fought any notion of saving the Union. I'm as "southern" as far as heritage but have a few lines of Unionists and Union army regulars who were southern.
 
#121
#121
OrangeEmpire said:
:banghead2:

Right, tell me how Lee replaced those men he lost?
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He replaced them with troops transferred from the relatively inactive Carolina sector. By the time Grant crossed the James, Lee had more men in his army than he had at the beginning of the Overland Campaign. At the cost of 60,000 casualties (a number equal to all the men in Lee's army) by June 1864, Grant was really no closer to capturing Richmond than he had been in early May. All factors considered, Grant was not on Lee's level as an army commander.
 
#123
#123
Vol_4_Life said:
He replaced them with troops transferred from the relatively inactive Carolina sector. By the time Grant crossed the James, Lee had more men in his army than he had at the beginning of the Overland Campaign. At the cost of 60,000 casualties (a number equal to all the men in Lee's army) by June 1864, Grant was really no closer to capturing Richmond than he had been in early May. All factors considered, Grant was not on Lee's level as an army commander.
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He replaced 28,000 casualties, don't forget those who died after the battles with 28,000 troops from Carolina? :blink:

Remind again how Lee fought of war of manuever from Petersburg? :eek:k:

You are correct, Grant understand what had to be done and won the war.

It all goes back to the war in Mexico. Lee was a carbon copy of Scott and Grant was a carbon of Taylor.
 
#124
#124
Vol_4_Life said:
I believe you endorsed a post by another poster who said Gettysburg was "the beginning of the end."
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It was part of it.

Antietam, the Emancipation, New Orleans and the blockade was the crucial first step.

Vicksburg and Gettysburg were second.

Third was Sherman marching into the deep south and Lee not being able to move from Petersburg is third.

Once Grant changed the strategy from occupying territory to fighting the confederate armies, the war was essentially over.
 
#125
#125
OrangeEmpire said:
He replaced 28,000 casualties, don't forget those who died after the battles with 28,000 troops from Carolina? :blink:

Remind again how Lee fought of war of manuever from Petersburg? :eek:k:

You are correct, Grant understand what had to be done and won the war.

It all goes back to the war in Mexico. Lee was a carbon copy of Scott and Grant was a carbon of Taylor.
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I don't recall the exact number he received from the Carolinas, but it was around 20,000.
 
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