Recruiting diminishing returns under Heupel's system?

[90 Vol]

Dey skeered.

 

[Carp]

We just had a Belitnikoff winner who was likely not getting drafted this time a year ago. Our QB was the front runner for the Heisman for right half the year. Our starting RT was a top 10 pick. We took an unheralded JUCO transfer out of a Military College in GA and turned him into a 3rd round pick.

If you don't think recruits take notice of that, you are FOS. We give guys the opportunity to get noticed by Scouts. Even on defense, while they are certainly are on the field a lot, that also allows them more opportunity to make a play and get noticed.

 

[Bearkat_Vol]

The defense argument is BS. I watched several games from last season and the commentators said the same thing in one of these games.
First, you don't need a "top 15 defense" when your offense scores forty points per game. Furthermore, your defense will give up more yardage and points when they are on the field for two-thirds of each game. In other words, having a lower-ranked defense is a side-effect of the offense's ability to score quickly and often. These knuckleheads know this, because they are essentially saying the same thing, but they aren't smart enough to realize this fact.
Second, in 2019 (CJP's second year) our opponents scored an average of 21.7 points per game. Our opponents scored an average of 22.8 points per game in CJH's second year. Thus, no difference in average opponent's score. But remember, CJP was/is considered to be a defensive "genius" (from Sand Mountain).

 

[DaddyChad]

First of all, I realize this is a Georgia media guy of some sort, so we have to automatically take what he says with a grain of salt for a lot of reasons. However, I'm also wondering if there is any sort of grain of truth to what he says. If the answer is 'no,' please explain your rationale with something besides a blanket dismissal or blind trust. My instinct is that he's wrong as well, but I want to know some solid reasons for why that's the case.

Here's a link to the first tweet (there are several). For those of you on the platform, probably worth looking at the responses and some of his answers to those.



And for those of you who don't Twitter, here is what he says:

The ironic part of Tennessee beginning to recruit well is that Tennessee is running a system that is designed to dramatically lessen the need for talent at OT and QB… It’s a law of diminishing returns. Over time, Heupel will actually be minimizing the talent advantage he’s built

I see UT fans don’t understand…

Guess what guys? The best way to use blue-chips isn’t to run a offense with 4 patterns in the tree. There’s a reason nobody is running the old Baylor stuff anymore. If the Vols recruit 5* OL one day, Heupel’s system will hold back their potential

There is a reason that teams with elite lines aren’t hiring someone to run this offense for them. Good DL’s have shredded it for 20 yrs.

You don’t like hearing it, but if UT starts to recruit like an elite program you’ll soon find yourselves calling for changes in the scheme

There’s a lot of you going the “you don’t understand Heupel’s offense” route… I promise you I do. That’s why I picked UT to lose by 21 in Athens last fall

I promise you he doesn’t know wtf he’s talking about. The entire reason Tennessee lost that game is because our Oline couldn’t hold up to their Dline. There’s a reason why other elite programs are trying to do what Tennessee did last year.

 

[Orangethumb]

This guy is saying that 3-4 years in Heupel’s system will turn these players into mental midgets and Tennessee doesn’t need elite guy’s cause it’s so easy that cave folk could do it. Nope. At the end of the day he’s just a fan of another program that is butt hurt because an elite player went to another team.

Nailed it.

 

[TennesseeTarheel]

So they’re basically saying Heupel’s system is so good he doesn’t need talent to run it. And they mean that as a criticism?

It's like a restaurant saying "Our food is so good it can be prepared by chimpanzees".

 

[TennesseeTarheel]

Lol this guy is cherry picking stats to say a whole lotta nothing..

View attachment 565176

I believe we ran more than we passed last season. So, QB's arm is only a part of it.

 

[JRich]

I consider these comments to be nothing more than negative recruiting. He's basically trying to tell blue chip OL's and QB's that UT is a poor choice, and we all know that once UT can recruit blue chip OL it's over because UT's scheme and coach is better. The NFL is transitioning to zone blocking, notice the devaluing of RB's in the league, not to mention Wright being drafted 10 says a lot. Everyone forgets about how well UT runs the ball, without blue chip RB's. Also, average journeyman QB HH, in one season turns into an NFL pick (68) even with a torn ACL. When did national champion SB go? 128.

Baylor is a poor comparison. Baylor is a small, private college with high academic standards, much like Vanderbilt. Briles had to cheat and allow criminal activity to get the few studs he had. CJH's system is better and he runs a cleaner program.

The talent gap in the trenches was prominent when UT played UGA and was pretty much the deciding factor along with a couple dropped passes. This dude is just scared that UT will nullify that gap soon.

 

[esarmstrong]

An opinion that cannot be objectively proved or disproved in any measurable way. It stands to reason that if better players are recruited, Tennessee will get better. How that translates into wins and losses is anyone's guess.

 

[utnut1]

Social media is all about clicks and this guy seems to be sensationalizing his statement to appeal to his Bulldog fan base. Taking that into consideration, I think he is just repeating the old adage that defense and ball control (when it matters at the end of a game) is necessary to win championships. I don't disagree with that. I also think you need a fantastic offense which Heupel has delivered. Defense and surgical ball control will come to us as we keep building up our roster. Then we will see Heupel hit the gas and the brakes as necessary in game situations. To quote another VN member..."they scared"! lol

 

[VOLfrombama]

If and when Tennessee gets 5* OL, the run game will be ridiculous. It's already good without 5* Lineman. That will open up the passing game even more than we have seen.

I can't wait to watch Heup and Co prove this dewshcanoe wrong.

 

[OrangeTsar]

Can you imagine our military operating with this mindset? „Our system and plans are making our victories too easy and we are afraid our generals are losing their ability for complex planning. So we will try and be less effective in the next war to keep our edge“?

 

[37620VOL]

Dumb
Let's take it point by point

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The ironic part of Tennessee beginning to recruit well is that Tennessee is running a system that is designed to dramatically lessen the need for talent at OT and QB… It’s a law of diminishing returns. Over time, Heupel will actually be minimizing the talent advantage he’s built

WRONG. WRs can't fully stress the defense in less than 3 seconds. It's essential to have an OL that can consistently protect or it will be an entire night of sacks and TOs.

I see UT fans don’t understand…

Guess what guys? The best way to use blue-chips isn’t to run a offense with 4 patterns in the tree. There’s a reason nobody is running the old Baylor stuff anymore. If the Vols recruit 5* OL one day, Heupel’s system will hold back their potential

Many programs are running an offense similar to ours. Ours is generally executing it better, and putting extra pressure on the defense by running it faster and not giving them time to make adjustments.

There is a reason that teams with elite lines aren’t hiring someone to run this offense for them. Good DL’s have shredded it for 20 yrs.

Dumb. The Vols handled many very good DLs last year, LSU, BAMA (hello Will Anderson), Clemson. UGA's defense last year was elite. When they were on, they could shut down anyone. They stuffed our offense for a few reasons:
1. We had some deep balls and very few of them connected.
2. They stuffed our run game with only 6 in the box and got significant pressure from just their front 4 (I would argue that we need more talent at OL and RB to prevent this from happening)
3. Because they didn't need to bring an extra defender in the box, they were able to double our biggest threats, and made us beat them where we were weakest. But this only proves that we need major talent upgrades at OL, TE, and RB so we can beat great defenses from any position group.

You don’t like hearing it, but if UT starts to recruit like an elite program you’ll soon find yourselves calling for changes in the scheme

The scheme always needs to improve/evolve especially as it relates to your talent and where you have it. What's his point?

There’s a lot of you going the “you don’t understand Heupel’s offense” route… I promise you I do. That’s why I picked UT to lose by 21 in Athens last fall

What score did you pick for the Bama game?

Another point that was made was that we would never have a top 25 defense. That may be true if you judge it based on irrational measurements like total scoring, total yards, TOP, etc. You have to look at it based on an adjusted points per possession metric. There's no reason our defense shouldn't be top 25 based on aPPP by 2024.

 

[ArmchairQB]

The article seems like it’s saying that if you want to maximize the value of having bluechips, you need to line up in the field in orderly rows and fire muskets at each other like the fossil redcoats are still doing. Meanwhile I distinctly remember articles talking about NFL coaches talking scheme with Coach Heupel. Guess which one I think it’s worth it to pay attention to.

 

[cherokeeeVOL]

Looking forward to the Georgia fan base meltdown when they inevitably come crashing down to earth again.

 

[ArmchairQB]

Not entirely related, but I feel like a “we do our speeding ON the field” sign gets on TV this November.

 

[Pump Guy]

It's like a restaurant saying "Our food is so good it can be prepared by chimpanzees".

I think you have it backwards; "our chef is so good, we don't need quality ingredients"

 

[volsrock09]

First of all, I realize this is a Georgia media guy of some sort, so we have to automatically take what he says with a grain of salt for a lot of reasons. However, I'm also wondering if there is any sort of grain of truth to what he says. If the answer is 'no,' please explain your rationale with something besides a blanket dismissal or blind trust. My instinct is that he's wrong as well, but I want to know some solid reasons for why that's the case.

Here's a link to the first tweet (there are several). For those of you on the platform, probably worth looking at the responses and some of his answers to those.



And for those of you who don't Twitter, here is what he says:

The ironic part of Tennessee beginning to recruit well is that Tennessee is running a system that is designed to dramatically lessen the need for talent at OT and QB… It’s a law of diminishing returns. Over time, Heupel will actually be minimizing the talent advantage he’s built

I see UT fans don’t understand…

Guess what guys? The best way to use blue-chips isn’t to run a offense with 4 patterns in the tree. There’s a reason nobody is running the old Baylor stuff anymore. If the Vols recruit 5* OL one day, Heupel’s system will hold back their potential

There is a reason that teams with elite lines aren’t hiring someone to run this offense for them. Good DL’s have shredded it for 20 yrs.

You don’t like hearing it, but if UT starts to recruit like an elite program you’ll soon find yourselves calling for changes in the scheme

There’s a lot of you going the “you don’t understand Heupel’s offense” route… I promise you I do. That’s why I picked UT to lose by 21 in Athens last fall

Why would you call for a change in scheme with higher rated recruits after being very successful with lower rated recruits.....bottom line, you wouldn't. His logic makes no sense to me. Literally couldn't be much more successful on offense at #1 with lesser rated recruits. No one was talking about Hyatt, Tillman, or Hooker in the NFL before 2 years ago. He probably wants to tout UGA's scheme as superior but in all honesty their scheme is this successful because they have 5 stars all around. Their talent level is the best in the country. Anyone's kids can call plays for them and be successful (sarcasm but you get my point).

The best way to use blue-chip recruits (especially WR/RB) is to get them in the open field in a 1:1 matchup. If that's only using 4 routes (which I don't believe to be true, but sad for the defenses if they can't figure out how to defend 4 routes as he claims UT runs).

If Heupel can get unknown guys wide open 3-4 times per game and I mean WIDE OPEN, imagine what he can do with athletes like Matthews.

 

[Pump Guy]

I would love to recruit for our defense. Imagine telling a kid that because our offense is so good, you will get more opportunities to play. When you do play, you get to play aggressive, go after the quarterback/wr because the other team is having to keep up.

I heard a commentator say two years ago that we would have trouble getting good defensive players due to time of possession. I don't want a kid that is afraid of playing too much.

 

[amaralfan1]

This article feels a lot like what most of the SEC media was saying when Urban brought the Spread to the SEC. Georgia may soon be Tennessee circa 2001-2005. Still good, but with storm clouds on the horizon.

 

[Pump Guy]

You know, he may be on to something. Georgia's offensive scheme is so bland and unimaginative, that Georgia needs superior players to win. I think Georgia should run with that when recruiting.

 

[fossilfiction]

That's the dumbest **** I have ever read. The better the athletes the better the offense runs. Just because he can coach up 3 stars doesn't mean he cannot coach up 4 and 5 stars as well and it damn sure doesn't mean that the offense gets worse with better athletes. What a silly take.
Graham pays to use a free platform, he is that stupid.

 

[LouderVol]

His entire argument is based on supposition.

I would ask what level of talent is he talking about? Just high school recruiting rankings done by a bunch of guys who just bandwagon ratings based on who offers them? And I say that as someone who thinks those ratings are usually correct/worth paying attention to. Or do he mean talent, like those going to the NFL, because clearly this system doesn't have a problem with NFL type talents.

I mean at some point he is correct. Getting a 15th 5* offensive linemen is not going to have an impact on the quality of play. But that is true for every system. Even if not taken to the extreme of 15, 5 5* o line could be "enough" to play well based on how you group them. but as with his entire argument he doesn't offer anything more than his opinion.

also how much better does he expect the number 1 offense in the nation to be? At some point we may get jaded that we aren't breaking our own records every year, but thats an extreme "first world problem" I would love to have. Diminishing returns implies we need to worried about the ceiling of this offense not being "good enough", we are already number 1, what else should they be doing? He can't and doesn't even go as far to say that getting 5* will hurt us. So he isn't really addressing TN fans as us needing to watch out for this system to fold under better talent....

He doesn't make any specific point regarding Heupel's system, its just "trust me" their WRs have 4 routes, and that impacts our OL somehow.....

And as always they forget that we are a run first offense, need great OL for that. We run to set up the pass. Georgia even showed that when they beat us. Stop the run and we struggle to pass. Granted I am not an "expert" like this guy to get away with a "trust me I have looked at their offense"; but that interplay of run game to set up the pass says that we need good players to be able to feed off each other. Kirby even stated before the game we were a run first team when asked about HH.

besides run blocking you still need good pass blocking, wider splits on the OL are used, but that doesn't mean that a bunch of 5*s will have to play like 3*s. His argument seems to be that our system makes it "too easy" for good players to develop. I am thinking he is just bringing the old opinion of it worked for granddad. so the only way you are any good is if you did 3-a-days filled with nothing but Oklahoma drills, and running till you puke, and don't worry about all those concussions, just walk them off.

He words this more like a warning to recruits, so they are worried about us taking them, and doesn't offer any specific evidence. No one has seen this system run with 5*s; so this guy assumes it won't work with 5*s. Apparently it won't work, just because. We just put a 5* OL into the NFL as a first round draft pick, last year our other 5* OL was drafted as well. I am not sure what evidence he has behind those two facts. So its not like the system itself is the issue, and obviously the coaches can develop the talent if we are able to take 3*s and make the Number 1 offense.

Our system is fine, its a "work smarter not harder" situation, you don't have to purposefully make things difficult to prove you are the best.

 

[Noni]

That's the dumbest **** I have ever read. The better the athletes the better the offense runs. Just because he can coach up 3 stars doesn't mean he cannot coach up 4 and 5 stars as well and it damn sure doesn't mean that the offense gets worse with better athletes. What a silly take.
Graham pays to use a free platform, he is that stupid.

This was exactly my thought. Actually, my first thought was what the he!!? Do I not understand football 101 or does he not? More talent and better recruits will hurt us?

 

[Remy]

This is the pep talk argument Saban and Smart use to calm down their DLs who exert all that effort play after play after play against Heupel's offense and can't get there or put up big numbers against UT. Think not? Recall the case of all world Mr. Superman of defense from Bama last year, Will Anderson. In our game with them he basically ... ... disappeared.