Recruiting diminishing returns under Heupel's system?

#52
#52
The ironic part of Tennessee beginning to recruit well is that Tennessee is running a system that is designed to dramatically lessen the need for talent at OT and QB
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I wish he would have explained his reasoning for this statement, although I realize the format for twitter does not really allow in depth explanations. I would think this offense would require more talent at QB. The offense will not run well if the QB cannot pick up yards with his feet and make the throws. I am also curious about how talent past a certain level on the offensive line is wasted.

Also, if you run that style of offense, you will never have a top 15 defense. It’s borderline impossible. It doesn’t matter who is on that side of the ball
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Fair enough, with the offense Heupel runs the defense has to defend a lot more plays from scrimmage which will lead to more yards and points given up. A couple of things about that, though. The offense scores a lot more points than other schemes, so we can still easily outscore the other team. Also, the style of defense should be more geared towards creating turnovers than shutting down the opposing offense completely. I think Banks is trying to build an attacking defense that will give up the occasional big play but can get to the quarterback, create interceptions and have players that try to strip the ball. If the opposing teams scores on a big play, get our offense back out there to answer with our own points.

A final thought. It is a bit baffling to me that anyone would make the point that greater talent at whatever position will not help.
 
#53
#53
tennesseekilt said:
First of all, I realize this is a Georgia media guy of some sort, so we have to automatically take what he says with a grain of salt for a lot of reasons. However, I'm also wondering if there is any sort of grain of truth to what he says. If the answer is 'no,' please explain your rationale with something besides a blanket dismissal or blind trust. My instinct is that he's wrong as well, but I want to know some solid reasons for why that's the case.

Here's a link to the first tweet (there are several). For those of you on the platform, probably worth looking at the responses and some of his answers to those.



And for those of you who don't Twitter, here is what he says:

The ironic part of Tennessee beginning to recruit well is that Tennessee is running a system that is designed to dramatically lessen the need for talent at OT and QB… It’s a law of diminishing returns. Over time, Heupel will actually be minimizing the talent advantage he’s built

I see UT fans don’t understand…

Guess what guys? The best way to use blue-chips isn’t to run a offense with 4 patterns in the tree. There’s a reason nobody is running the old Baylor stuff anymore. If the Vols recruit 5* OL one day, Heupel’s system will hold back their potential

There is a reason that teams with elite lines aren’t hiring someone to run this offense for them. Good DL’s have shredded it for 20 yrs.

You don’t like hearing it, but if UT starts to recruit like an elite program you’ll soon find yourselves calling for changes in the scheme

There’s a lot of you going the “you don’t understand Heupel’s offense” route… I promise you I do. That’s why I picked UT to lose by 21 in Athens last fall
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If you have guys who are bigger, stronger , faster..and well coached...they are going to win most contests of lesser coached teams of equal talent and also agaisnt lesser talented teams that are well coached, the vas majority of the time.

Does that really need explaining?
 
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#57
#57
jackaro said:
I wish he would have explained his reasoning for this statement, although I realize the format for twitter does not really allow in depth explanations. I would think this offense would require more talent at QB.
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I can see this one more so than his other points. Heupel simplifies the reads for his QBs in multiple ways. The plays are generally, two progressions, then scramble. We've seen overly complex too, with Cheney as OC we had plays where 10 things had to go perfectly to get a 7 yard completion to the 4th QB progression. Cheney needed a Brees, Manning, Brady super high IQ style QB to be successful.

With Heupel, the QB still has to be accurate and on time, he also has to facilitate the lightning pace, but he does not need to process 250 data points in 2 seconds.

Which is more successful? I'll take the simple, aggressive playbook all day long.
 
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#58
#58
37620VOL said:
I can see this one more so than his other points. Heupel simplifies the reads for his QBs in multiple ways. The plays are generally, two progressions, then scramble. We've seen overly complex too, with Cheney as OC we had plays where 10 things had to go perfectly to get a 7 yard completion to the 4th QB progression. Cheney needed a Brees, Manning, Brady super high IQ style QB to be successful.

With Heupel, the QB still has to be accurate and on time, he also has to facilitate the lightning pace, but he does not need to process 250 data points in 2 seconds.

Which is more successful? I'll take the simple, aggressive playbook all day long.
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I get what you are saying, just seems to me that this offense requires a quarterback with more talent at a specific skill set, like you said the QB needs to facilitate the lightening pace. Maybe some QB's are better at reading the defense and processing 250 data points, others are better at getting everyone to the line, getting the play called and snapping the ball real quick like. Both QB's need to be accurate and on time. Is one QB necessarily more talented than the other? I would think they are both talented but in different ways.

It would be different if we were talking about which skill set translates better to the NFL, but we are only talking about college ball.
 
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#62
#62
He's not completely off base. Our Defense will never be considered elite because of the shear volume of plays the other team get to run. But that doesn't mean they won't be playing at the elite level. It just won't show up in the statistics. It could be a windfall for an élite players stats. On defense, when the other team is running 90 plays a game, how many shots at tackles for loss/QB hurries/interceptions/ and tackles do you get compared to someone running 50 plays a game?
Also, we run what we run because of the talent gap. As we close the talent gap, the playbook opens up. We don't just run the same plays with better talent.
 
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#64
#64
zaqhhh said:
Nearly any team is going to have trouble beating UGA in a pure rock fight with recruiting talent, so I don't see his point.

The system has worked so far, when it doesn't then tweak it, but I really find it ironic taking advice from someone whose state allows it to be one of the most talent rich in the nation on the topic of maximizing returns.
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His point was to generate clicks and chatter.

He picked UGA to win by 21 because they out talented us ...
 
#65
#65
tennesseekilt said:
First of all, I realize this is a Georgia media guy of some sort, so we have to automatically take what he says with a grain of salt for a lot of reasons. However, I'm also wondering if there is any sort of grain of truth to what he says. If the answer is 'no,' please explain your rationale with something besides a blanket dismissal or blind trust. My instinct is that he's wrong as well, but I want to know some solid reasons for why that's the case.

Here's a link to the first tweet (there are several). For those of you on the platform, probably worth looking at the responses and some of his answers to those.



And for those of you who don't Twitter, here is what he says:

The ironic part of Tennessee beginning to recruit well is that Tennessee is running a system that is designed to dramatically lessen the need for talent at OT and QB… It’s a law of diminishing returns. Over time, Heupel will actually be minimizing the talent advantage he’s built

I see UT fans don’t understand…

Guess what guys? The best way to use blue-chips isn’t to run a offense with 4 patterns in the tree. There’s a reason nobody is running the old Baylor stuff anymore. If the Vols recruit 5* OL one day, Heupel’s system will hold back their potential

There is a reason that teams with elite lines aren’t hiring someone to run this offense for them. Good DL’s have shredded it for 20 yrs.

You don’t like hearing it, but if UT starts to recruit like an elite program you’ll soon find yourselves calling for changes in the scheme

There’s a lot of you going the “you don’t understand Heupel’s offense” route… I promise you I do. That’s why I picked UT to lose by 21 in Athens last fall
Click to expand...

Kilt, the lad is wrong. There is no truth to what he says.

He starts with a simple (but errant) assumption: the Vols run a gimmick offense [the truth: every scheme, even pro style, is a "gimmick" if you don't understand it]. Then he stacks on top of that assumption another one (also wrong): you don't need talent to run a gimmicky scheme [the truth: a more talented player will make a pro style offense run even better. And will make the wishbone offense run even better. And will make a spread offense run even better. And will make the single wing run even better. Talented players make EVERY scheme work better]. Then he piles yet another assumption on top of those two: elite players don't want to play in a scheme that doesn't require them to be talented [the truth: this is like saying an infantryman won't accept a ride on the back of a truck or tank if he is elite enough to walk 25 miles on foot; fact is, all human beings like finding the easier path, even if they have the talent to take a harder road].

And he just keeps building this house of cards, one misconception sitting on top of the previous, until the entire edifice is as shaky as a late-game jenga tower in a detox center.

The truth is, this fella doesn't understand Heupel's offense. He keeps insisting he does, but he doesn't. Because he doesn't come anywhere close to addressing all of its elements.

Now I'm no football genius, and don't even claim to understand all the complexity of the scheme. From what I can tell, it's kind of like Frankenstein's monster, with its arms from that body over there, and the head from that other corpse, and the left foot from there, and the.... Heh.

Here are a few of the bigger parts of Josh' scheme that I get, more or less:

-- Spread. Most college teams use aspects of the spread these days. It has become so common, no one even calls it gimmicky. Not a lot of teams spread horizontally quite as far as Josh & Crew, but plenty of folks use elements of the spread.

-- Hurry-up. Not too many years ago, no one used hurry-up except in the final two minutes of the half. Now, more and more teams are using it situationally throughout the match. Not many use it constantly all game long as we do, but most are using it more and more as the years pass by.

-- Tree routes. Giving a receiver the freedom to choose which of three or four routes he will run WHILE THE PLAY IS DEVELOPING, that's the part this fella glommed onto. It's apparently the ONLY element he got stuck on. Does it make the QB dumber? No, shifting the "play call" (route call, really) from QB to WR doesn't make the QB any less smart than he was before. It's just spreading out the decision-making.

-- Run-pass balance. Most folks miss it, but this offense runs just as much as it passes the ball. This fella certainly misses that point.

And the thing is, some of the points the fella you quoted tries to make, they might sorta kinda almost make sense if you're just focused in on one aspect of Heupel's offense, but lose their importance, or coherence, or both, when you back up and look at all the parts together.

Bottom line is, he's wrong. The NFL draft just a couple of months ago, that proved he's wrong. The recruiting success the Vols are having right now, that proves he's wrong. The outcomes of most games last season, some against very good teams, they prove he's wrong.

He has the game his Dawgs won against us as his sole bit of "proof" for his viewpoint. Otherwise, all the empirical evidence available is shaking its head at this fella, saying he's wrong.

Yeah. He is.

Go Vols!
 
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#66
#66
DonDiego said:
'There is a reason that teams with elite lines aren’t hiring someone to run this offense for them. Good DL’s have shredded it for 20 yrs.'

Who shredded us last year? I don't remember a DL shredding our OL any time last year. Did I forget something?
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Jalen Carter pretty much abused us last year.
 
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#68
#68
It's not like Georgia is pumping out NFL quality QBs. Stafford is the only one who ever mattered and that was nearly 20 year ago. Georgia is as much a "system" as any other school. QBs are only good in their system and suck in the NFL so what's the difference? As long as UT recruits elite QBs and WRs we will score as many points as we like. What we have to do is recruit elite at defense.
 
#70
#70
So He's theorizing a bunch of guys in the breakroom at FedEx would have similar results under this staff ?
 
#71
#71
tennesseekilt said:
First of all, I realize this is a Georgia media guy of some sort, so we have to automatically take what he says with a grain of salt for a lot of reasons. However, I'm also wondering if there is any sort of grain of truth to what he says. If the answer is 'no,' please explain your rationale with something besides a blanket dismissal or blind trust. My instinct is that he's wrong as well, but I want to know some solid reasons for why that's the case.

Here's a link to the first tweet (there are several). For those of you on the platform, probably worth looking at the responses and some of his answers to those.



And for those of you who don't Twitter, here is what he says:

The ironic part of Tennessee beginning to recruit well is that Tennessee is running a system that is designed to dramatically lessen the need for talent at OT and QB… It’s a law of diminishing returns. Over time, Heupel will actually be minimizing the talent advantage he’s built

I see UT fans don’t understand…

Guess what guys? The best way to use blue-chips isn’t to run a offense with 4 patterns in the tree. There’s a reason nobody is running the old Baylor stuff anymore. If the Vols recruit 5* OL one day, Heupel’s system will hold back their potential

There is a reason that teams with elite lines aren’t hiring someone to run this offense for them. Good DL’s have shredded it for 20 yrs.

You don’t like hearing it, but if UT starts to recruit like an elite program you’ll soon find yourselves calling for changes in the scheme

There’s a lot of you going the “you don’t understand Heupel’s offense” route… I promise you I do. That’s why I picked UT to lose by 21 in Athens last fall
Click to expand...



Who cares if you have a top 15 defense. The name of the game is one more point. And I'll take 4 and 5 star talent at QB, WR RB and TE. Vol defense will be improved. Vol offense is a function of Joe. Is this guy picking dogs by 21 this year? And what Josh has forgotten about offense is more than this guy could ever grasp. Heupel constantly adjusts. Don't slam Vol offense just because dogs run Bobo's 80's stuff.
 
#73
#73
Why does it seem like he thinks we don't run the ball? Our offense isn't throw the ball 60 times a game. The run game is a key part of our offense, and last I checked, having good OL really helps the run game.
 
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#74
#74
xpsyclonex2002 said:
He's not completely off base. Our Defense will never be considered elite because of the shear volume of plays the other team get to run. But that doesn't mean they won't be playing at the elite level. It just won't show up in the statistics.
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Our defense won't be considered elite until it is elite. And when it is elite then there will be no denying it. By anyone.
Other teams will get possession of the ball once we score, but our defense doesn't have to worry about how many plays the other team runs unless we can't get off of the field on third down.
Sacks, interceptions, forced fumbles and tackles for loss will all show up in the stats.

The original article being quoted could be summed up by simply saying they scared.
 
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