Recruiting Football Talk VII

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#35,126
#35,126
Ashevolle said:
He was checked right before/as it happened. How are you gonna prove it was an intentional act to injure and not a freak bang bang play?
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The enforcer guys in Hockey are usually the less coordinated guys on the ice… Doubt it was intentional but whether he is charged or not. His life is over…. Everyone knows who is and i couldnt imagine living with that guilt.
 
#35,128
#35,128
Orange. said:
Second degree murder (in the US, for comparison) doesn't require intention, nor does manslaughter. There is also an explicit category for involuntary manslaughter. Recklessness and/or negligence is a sufficient condition. If he were an ordinary Joe, most prosecutors would overcharge him and then offer him a "deal" to plead guilty some form of manslaughter or risk the sentence of the greater charge at an expensive trial. Of course, athletes in the US beat hell out of people, stomp their heads, act as accessories to murder, etc., with no criminal repercussions. I have seen on-court assaults in basketball that imo warranted criminal charges.

I don't think it was a hockey move.
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Second degree and manslaughter absolutely require intent. In TN, there is no involuntary manslaughter. There is reckless homicide.
 
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#35,132
#35,132
OGbabyaviVol said:
I told @nicksjuzunk he had to get game threads up by Tuesday each week, as it seems like we win and play better. The 2 games we lost he got the thread up either late in the week or not at all in the case of Florida (glitch went off the reservation and started one).
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#35,134
#35,134
Outofmyvolcanmind said:
This is not true. It was way more than a dirty play. A dirty play is boarding or hitting a guys below the pads with your stick. Let's apply the same rule to football. Let's say a Uconn player becomes unhinged and removes his helmet on our sidline and clubs one of our unsuspecting players in the head. Then said player suffers brain bleeding and dies. The whole thing caught on TV.

Oh well, that player knew what he signed up for. He should've been alert to the fact another player might use his helmet as a deadly weapon. Nothing to see here.
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He did not remove his skates though. You can’t prove the result was intentional even if the act was. It’s not a good comparison. A good comparison would be a blindside block or a spearhead tackle. It’s against the rules and it’s at this point considered dirty. But would you expect the person to receive criminal charges for it? No. It’s preposterous.

Someone died and it is inexplicable and senseless. People’s visceral reaction is for there to be justice served so that we can “feel better” about it. It’s not going to happen. Nothing will bring him back. Very likely no reasonable rules can be put in place to “ensure” it “never” happens again. The offending player is not a threat to society. It’s just sad.
 
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#35,139
#35,139
RudyVol said:
There's already a precedent. Todd Bertuzzi was sued for millions and charged with assault for a punch to the back/side of the head. This looks bad. I'm certain he didn't intend to kill him but neither do drunk drivers. Drunk drivers aren't trying to hurt anyone either and this guy clearly was trying to hurt the other guy.
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It’s different.

Was the punch to the head an in-game mid-play move?

Driving and drunk driving is not inherently violent. Hockey is. If he was trying to hurt the guy, the only thing that matters is was it “legal” or “illegal” within the rules of hockey. It’s the difference between a “good hit” and a “dirty play”, but it’s still a “play”, not a criminal act. You can’t take the play out of its context to seek justice for the tragedy. You might as well sue the whole league and all its players that have knowingly took part in it.
 
#35,141
#35,141
vol_in_ga said:
He did not remove his skates though. You can’t prove the result was intentional even if the act was. It’s not a good comparison. A good comparison would be a blindside block or a spearhead tackle. It’s against the rules and it’s at this point considered dirty. But would you expect the person to receive criminal charges for it? No. It’s preposterous.

Someone died and it is inexplicable and senseless. People’s visceral reaction is for there to be justice served so that we can “feel better” about it. It’s not going to happen. Nothing will bring him back. Very likely no reasonable rules can be put in place to “ensure” it “never” happens again. The offending player is not a threat to society. It’s just sad.
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How about this. Our offense is sitting on the bench with their back turned to the field. They are planning the next drive. The running back from the other team is having a terrible game and is getting frustrated. The player has a history of ejections and dirty plays. Our defense strings the play out and he is forced out of bounds. He then runs full speed and launches himself into the back of the head of one of our offensive players. That player collapses and isn't moving. Later dies.

Dirty Play, 15 yard penalty and ejected for targeting? Homicide? Manslaughter? Suspended for season? What is the punishment then?

The hockey player was NOT making a hockey play.
 
#35,142
#35,142
VolGee4 said:
Second degree and manslaughter absolutely require intent. In TN, there is no involuntary manslaughter. There is reckless homicide.
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@Jack Burton informs me that these things vary by state and that I was wrong to say "(in the US, by comparison)" and then specify anything at all. 😂

It will depend on the law there, as we know. But in some states here unintentional death can be classified as second degree murder, and there are places where negligent homicide and involuntary manslaughter is on the books. But reckless homicide, as you mention, would do it.

Second-degree murder is typically murder with malicious intent but not premeditated. Where it would be applicable would be jurisdictions where the mens rea of the defendant is: not restricted to intent to kill, but encompasses intent to inflict serious bodily harm, or act with an abandoned heart (e.g., reckless conduct lacking concern for human life or having a high risk of death).

But you and Jack are correct that I should not have added my overgeneralized statement.
 
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#35,145
#35,145
mrorange211 said:
hmmm I liked Dabo's rant. He seems pretty spot on to me.
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I would agree if coaches were still getting paid in the hundred thousands like the 90’s. Now that coaches are getting 10 million you just can’t act like that. They have to accept the scrutiny when you’re making more riches than 99.999999999999999999% of all humans in the history of mankind.
 
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#35,147
#35,147
Orange. said:
@Jack Burton informs me that these things vary by state and that I was wrong to say "(in the US, by comparison)" and then specify anything at all. 😂

It will depend on the law there, as we know. But in some states here unintentional death can be classified as second degree murder, and there are places where negligent homicide is on the books. But reckless homicide would do it.

Second-degree murder is typically murder with malicious intent but not premeditated. Where it would be applicable would be jurisdictions where the mens rea of the defendant is: not restricted to intent to kill, but encompasses intent to inflict serious bodily harm, or act with an abandoned heart (e.g., reckless conduct lacking concern for human life or having a high risk of death).
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Certainly depends on the state/jurisdiction. But what you stated about second degree murder is the common law definition, which is what many states originally used to pass the laws.

People confuse "murder" with "homicide." Murder requires intent. A homicide is the killing of another. Reckless homicide and negligent homicide are on the books in TN. You can have a justified homicide, where a person is not charged.
 
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