Recruiting Forum Football Talk II

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#55,227
#55,227
BruinVol said:
Dear Lord just stop.

If they go on scholarship
BEFORE the end of a year by the rules we have seen here they had to count either on the precious years or the next years 25.

That’s plain and simple.

You nor any other rule posted here has shown that to be wrong
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15.5.6.4 Exceptions. [FBS/FCS]

15.5.6.4.2 Voluntary Withdrawal From the Institution During the Academic Year. [FBS/ FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws (e.g., transfer, official religious mission) from the institution during the academic year by providing the financial aid to another student-athlete, including an incoming student-athlete, beginning with the ensuing term (e.g., spring semester, winter or spring quarter) without making the second student-athlete a counter for the remainder of that academic year. The departing student-athlete’s aid may be canceled upon the institution’s receipt of a signed statement from the student-athlete releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. If such a statement is received, a hearing opportunity (per Bylaw 15.3.2.3) is not required. (Adopted: 4/25/18 effective 8/1/18)

Also:
15.5.6.3.5 Aid First Awarded After First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete who has been in residence at the certifying institution for at least one academic year may receive athletically related financial aid for the first time without such aid counting as an initial award, provided the aid falls within the overall grant limitation. (Adopted: 1/11/89, Revised: 1/10/90 effective 8/1/90, 4/25/18 effective 8/1/18)

Academic year being fall/spring semester...so were any of the 3 awarded here in the spring as early enrollees?
 
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#55,228
#55,228
MoCo_Vol said:
15.5.6.4 Exceptions. [FBS/FCS]

15.5.6.4.2 Voluntary Withdrawal From the Institution During the Academic Year. [FBS/ FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws (e.g., transfer, official religious mission) from the institution during the academic year by providing the financial aid to another student-athlete, including an incoming student-athlete, beginning with the ensuing term (e.g., spring semester, winter or spring quarter) without making the second student-athlete a counter for the remainder of that academic year. The departing student-athlete’s aid may be canceled upon the institution’s receipt of a signed statement from the student-athlete releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. If such a statement is received, a hearing opportunity (per Bylaw 15.3.2.3) is not required. (Adopted: 4/25/18 effective 8/1/18)
Click to expand...

Read the bolded lol


It doesn’t say they are exempt from ever being an initial counter. Good grief it only says the current academic year

They have to count forward per any rules posted here
 
#55,229
#55,229
MoCo_Vol said:
15.5.6.4 Exceptions. [FBS/FCS]

15.5.6.4.2 Voluntary Withdrawal From the Institution During the Academic Year. [FBS/ FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws (e.g., transfer, official religious mission) from the institution during the academic year by providing the financial aid to another student-athlete, including an incoming student-athlete, beginning with the ensuing term (e.g., spring semester, winter or spring quarter) without making the second student-athlete a counter for the remainder of that academic year. The departing student-athlete’s aid may be canceled upon the institution’s receipt of a signed statement from the student-athlete releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. If such a statement is received, a hearing opportunity (per Bylaw 15.3.2.3) is not required. (Adopted: 4/25/18 effective 8/1/18)
Click to expand...
F584AF14-2220-43C9-866B-D21FA7431514.gif
 
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#55,232
#55,232
Pepe said:
He was clearly better than Hurts,who in turn was clearly better than average.
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Not disagreeing, just observing..Hurts has gotten a LOT better over the years..you can tell he has worked hard at his craft. He made a few touch throws in both in the pocket, and on the run in that Baylor game that were beautiful works of art...throws that he couldn't see or make before.
 
#55,233
#55,233
MoCo_Vol said:
Cliffs is...because of how many guys we had voluntarily give up their scholarships we got counters/scholarships we can hand out starting in Spring semester without having to back-count against a 25 class limit to do so.
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Transfers only open up Spring counters, not a way around the 25...otherwise we and everyone else would be signing bigger classes and pumping up EEs. This is just similar to the midyear replacement and ineligible player rules.

Even if we figure out ways we may have gotten back an IC (Mcbride is only one that comes to mind) it doesn't make sense we would use it in this way.
 
#55,234
#55,234
Devo182 said:
Transfers only open up Spring counters, not a way around the 25...otherwise we and everyone else would be signing bigger classes and pumping up EEs. This is just similar to the midyear replacement and ineligible player rules.

Even if we figure out ways we may have gotten back an IC (Mcbride is only one that comes to mind) it doesn't make sense we would use it in this way.
Click to expand...

This says they got Antonutti's initial scholarship back:

"Antonutti will remain on academic scholarship but will not count toward the scholarship number of 85 for football. The football program was granted his initial scholarship back from last season. "

VolQuest - OL Tanner Antonutti takes medical retirement, plans to still impact Vols
 
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#55,235
#55,235
Devo182 said:
Transfers only open up Spring counters, not a way around the 25...otherwise we and everyone else would be signing bigger classes and pumping up EEs. This is just similar to the midyear replacement and ineligible player rules.

Even if we figure out ways we may have gotten back an IC (Mcbride is only one that comes to mind) it doesn't make sense we would use it in this way.
Click to expand...


Does Solomon being a walk on get one back?

It has to doesn’t it ?
 
#55,237
#55,237
VFLBerg said:
This says they got Antonutti's initial scholarship back:

"Antonutti will remain on academic scholarship but will not count toward the scholarship number of 85 for football. The football program was granted his initial scholarship back from last season. "

VolQuest - OL Tanner Antonutti takes medical retirement, plans to still impact Vols
Click to expand...
He recanted on that fwiw. Even if we had, it was used last class and no longer in effect. We had to use BSs just to reach 25, so any opened scholarships were used.
 
#55,240
#55,240
Devo182 said:
Transfers only open up Spring counters, not a way around the 25...otherwise we and everyone else would be signing bigger classes and pumping up EEs. This is just similar to the midyear replacement and ineligible player rules.

Even if we figure out ways we may have gotten back an IC (Mcbride is only one that comes to mind) it doesn't make sense we would use it in this way.
Click to expand...

Think I figured it out...

15.5.6.4 Exceptions. [FBS/FCS] 15.5.6.4.1 Preseason Voluntary Withdrawal. [FBS/FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws from the football team by providing the financial aid to another student who already has enrolled in the institution and is a member of the football squad. For this replacement to occur, the counter must withdraw prior to the first day of classes or the first game of the season, whichever is earlier, and provide the institution with a signed statement releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. The institution may immediately (beginning with the fall term) award the financial aid to a student-athlete who has been a member of the team for at least one academic year and has not previously received athletically related financial aid. A student-athlete who has not been a member of the team for at least one academic year may not receive the financial aid during the fall term, but may receive it in an ensuing term (e.g., spring semester, winter quarter). (Revised: 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05)

So with Tanner, McBride and anyone else that withdrew before the first day of class you would have a counter (one of the 85) but even the bylaw it doesn't require it to be an "initial counter" (one of the 25 against a class limit).

I'm not sure what the eligibility is for Banks, but here's another way to get a counter back (again not an "initial counter").

15.5.6.4.3 Replacement of an Ineligible Student-Athlete. [FBS/FCS] An institution may replace a counter whose aid is canceled because the student-athlete rendered himself or herself ineligible for intercollegiate competition during a particular academic term (e.g., fall semester, winter quarter) by providing the financial aid to another student in the ensuing term (e.g., spring semester, spring quarter). (Adopted: 4/26/17 effective 8/1/17)
 
#55,241
#55,241
BruinVol said:
Does Solomon being a walk on get one back?

It has to doesn’t it ?
Click to expand...
Not sure why it would. Solomon was always a blueshirt and getting scholarship after semester began. Not sure why he just now was put on. But he was already accounted for and figured to be a scholarship/25 guy. The other 2 I don't get.
 
#55,243
#55,243
Garland & Isiah are the only 2 that aren't accounted for...

2019 class we had 22 enrollees though so we may not have had a full class anyway. Then McBride likely withdrew prior to day 1 and opened up a scholarship by doing so.

Another key term I keep seeing in the bylaws

15.02.3.1 Initial Counter. [FBS/FCS] An “initial counter” is a counter who is receiving countable financial aid in a sport for the first time. (See Bylaw 15.5.6.3 in football for instances in which the institution is permitted to defer the counting of such financial aid until the following academic year.)

Initial Counters are very specific. First academic year AND receiving countable financial aid in a sport for the first time.

So Aubrey, Hill, Collins, and most transfers wouldn't have to be "initial counters" (count against a specific class of 25). They could be awarded scholarships and just be a counter against the 85 through a variety of avenues, written within the bylaws.
 
#55,244
#55,244
MoCo_Vol said:
Think I figured it out...

15.5.6.4 Exceptions. [FBS/FCS] 15.5.6.4.1 Preseason Voluntary Withdrawal. [FBS/FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws from the football team by providing the financial aid to another student who already has enrolled in the institution and is a member of the football squad. For this replacement to occur, the counter must withdraw prior to the first day of classes or the first game of the season, whichever is earlier, and provide the institution with a signed statement releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. The institution may immediately (beginning with the fall term) award the financial aid to a student-athlete who has been a member of the team for at least one academic year and has not previously received athletically related financial aid. A student-athlete who has not been a member of the team for at least one academic year may not receive the financial aid during the fall term, but may receive it in an ensuing term (e.g., spring semester, winter quarter). (Revised: 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05)

So with Tanner, McBride and anyone else that withdrew before the first day of class you would have a counter (one of the 85) but even the bylaw it doesn't require it to be an "initial counter" (one of the 25 against a class limit).

I'm not sure what the eligibility is for Banks, but here's another way to get a counter back (again not an "initial counter").

15.5.6.4.3 Replacement of an Ineligible Student-Athlete. [FBS/FCS] An institution may replace a counter whose aid is canceled because the student-athlete rendered himself or herself ineligible for intercollegiate competition during a particular academic term (e.g., fall semester, winter quarter) by providing the financial aid to another student in the ensuing term (e.g., spring semester, spring quarter). (Adopted: 4/26/17 effective 8/1/17)
Click to expand...
This is just all about replacing counters. 1 is taken off the rolls, 1 is added. The only rule getting around 25 limit is the 1 year rule or injury/illness.

If these dealt with ICs, there would be a corresponding rule about the signees limit, otherwise it doesn't really get around the annual limit.
 
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#55,247
#55,247
BruinVol said:
Dear Lord just stop.

If they go on scholarship
BEFORE the end of a year by the rules we have seen here they had to count either on the precious years or the next years 25.

That’s plain and simple.

You nor any other rule posted here has shown that to be wrong
Click to expand...
Plain and simple...just like you. 😉 The rule’s clearly stated opposite of your interpretation and you’re Bruining it cuz you’re dug in. When your teetering point hinges on this bizarre give 3 scholarships for just a semester and then yank em away fulcrum, you lost before you started. Best occupy yourself in a fresh search of windmills.
 
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#55,248
#55,248
MoCo_Vol said:
Garland & Isiah are the only 2 that aren't accounted for...

2019 class we had 22 enrollees though so we may not have had a full class anyway. Then McBride likely withdrew prior to day 1 and opened up a scholarship by doing so.

Another key term I keep seeing in the bylaws

15.02.3.1 Initial Counter. [FBS/FCS] An “initial counter” is a counter who is receiving countable financial aid in a sport for the first time. (See Bylaw 15.5.6.3 in football for instances in which the institution is permitted to defer the counting of such financial aid until the following academic year.)

Initial Counters are very specific. First academic year AND receiving countable financial aid in a sport for the first time.

So Aubrey, Hill, Collins, and most transfers wouldn't have to be "initial counters" (count against a specific class of 25). They could be awarded scholarships and just be a counter against the 85 through a variety of avenues, written within the bylaws.
Click to expand...
It's very well established all scholarship transfers count as ICs and signees. The "first time" is with a particular school. Really the only time it won't apply is when using the return rule. Like a kid leaves here, goes JUCO 2 years, and comes back here, then there is an exception made under its own rule.
 
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#55,249
#55,249
Devo182 said:
Not sure why it would. Solomon was always a blueshirt and getting scholarship after semester began. Not sure why he just now was put on. But he was already accounted for and figured to be a scholarship/25 guy. The other 2 I don't get.
Click to expand...

Well I guess I am Saying that we either lost 3 spots yesterday or gained1 on the 25. Solomon sure won’t count if the others don’t it they all Stay on $


I find it hard to believe they count I just want to see the Rule that explains it
 
#55,250
#55,250
The grey area I'm seeing here is what is the "annual" time frame exactly?

Cause the 25 is based on class for incoming academic year. So pretty easy to define that. The 85 is an annual limit, so you could "hide" numbers depending on what time of year that 85 actually gets counted.

Also academic year isn't well defined either. If you go by the financial aid award it would run from June 30th 2019 to July 1st 2020, so Fall 2019 semester & Spring 2020 semester. But if you simply define it as Fall & Spring, then anyone here in 2019 Spring would have satisfied their full academic year after this semester completes.

Gibbs, Aubrey, and the 10 early enrollees. Not a big deal though there since the 10 were all on scholarship, but I guess I point this out to say that a walk-on could show up in spring and go on scholarship the following spring without having to be an initial counter.

I've also read academic year being defined by earned credit hours...which is a totally different situation, some guys could technically complete an academic year (based on earned credits) just from summer/fall semester course load.
 
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