Recruiting Forum Football Talk XXXIV

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#9,628
#9,628
Volnukem said:
I'm so confused. Why does it matter where the RB gets the ball? Can they run that much faster without it? That doesn't make any sense. Of course, the RB knows where the QB will be, but he still has to focus on getting the ball then look upfield. From shotgun, the RB gets the ball earlier in the play and can keep their eyes upfield at all times.
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I guess I suck at explaining.

The RB never has to look at the qb to find the ball. They're always looking up field. They practice handoffs thousands and thousands of times for that reason.

If the RB is standing beside the qb, he doesn't start moving toward the LOS until after he has the ball. If the qb is under center, the RB is already running to the LOS by the time he has the ball.

So in a zone read, one second after the snap, the RB is just starting to move forward, so he has no chance to break a tackle or make someone miss because he barely even has the ball and hasn't moved yet. In a traditional handoff, he's already halfway up to speed and can break tackles easier and can make guys miss easier and can hit quickly-closing holes much faster than the RB in a zone read.

The zones read works because the defense isn't sure who has the ball, so they have to wait to male a move until they know, so the runner uses that extra time to get up to speed.

Source: Malzahn RB and backup qb from HS and his stint at Tulsa. I don't claim any football genius, just watched games with some Malzahn players who are friends of mine and they tell me what Gus always told them.
 
#9,635
#9,635
jave36 said:
1) what other qbs who werent mobile have successfully run the read option offense for an extended period?
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We don't run a "read option offense," though. We run a spread that features zone read looks. It's been our bread and butter the past few seasons because our strength on offense was RB and Dobbs' legs.

Anyway, QBs who aren't that mobile who've had success in spread offenses similar to ours.

Bryce Petty at Baylor did ok.
Justin Fuente beat Ole Miss with Paxton Lynch
Mason Rudolph is doing pretty well at OSU
Mitch Trubisky put up decent combine numbers, but you'd never have thought he'd do that well just from watching him play at UNC.
Jake Browning at Washington got to the playoffs last year.




2) look at a broader sample size. In games when Dobbs hardly kept the ball, look how our offense struggled. And look how it changed the instant Dobbs started keeping the ball. Having a running threat at QB in this offense is absolutely essential to sustain offensive success throughout a game and throughout a season.
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You're taking our offense with Dobbs, putting it in a bubble, removing outside factors, and making extrapolations about spread offenses in general based on that. It's bad logic.

A lot of things slowed our offense down at times: our OL couldn't pass block at times, our WR play was inconsistent until last year, Dobbs improved as a passer over his time here, but was always inconsistent in the short and intermediate pass game.

Of course our offense did better when he kept the ball more! He's the best rushing QB in our school's history. The dynamic will be different with a QB with a different skillset though.



Even in those games you cited, look how bad our offense was except for UGA. Citing rushing stats doesn't tell the whole story in a blowout loss against Oregon, and our offense was pretty bad against USC despite the rushing yards.
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That's true. But our offense that year was lacking talent and/or consistency everywhere except OL. And even against opponents who knew all we do was run, we did decently. It stands to reason that an offense with QB and WR talent would have probably seen better rushing numbers to boot, over the course of a season.

You're oversimplifying it by saying the offense doesn't need a mobile qb because we had decent rushing yards in those games. And it took us 40 attempts to get those yards against USC. That's not productive, successful offense that's capable of winning championships, and my point is that this offense can't take us to that level without a mobile qb. Dormady can take us to that level, but not with a zone read. Imo
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You're oversimplifying biglier. Our 2015 rushing game was nearly identical to that 2013 game. Dobbs had 13 carries at 2.69 a pop.


Anyway, it's all moot. Others have pointed out that our run game isn't purely based on the zone read. It's been a big component with Dobbs at QB. Not doing so with him under center would have been coaching malpractice. But you're falsely assuming that our run scheme is centered only around zone read plays. And that just ain't true.
 
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#9,636
#9,636
we’ll see how they play on saturdays, obviously, but the overall athleticism in the back seven of tennessee’s defense is leaps-and-bounds better than it’s been in the past. Butch jones and his staff have stacked together several solid-or-better recruiting classes, and the athletic depth in the linebacker corps and secondary is starting to look really good.
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👀
 
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#9,637
#9,637
jave36 said:
Well that was my point. It was a read option offense that was mostly ineffective because the qb never kept it. On the rare occasion that he did, you could see the DE and LB freeze for the next few plays.
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We don't know how much of that was because the coaches were afraid to lose Worley, though. They were trying to keep the guy who gave them the best shot at bowl eligibility healthy.
 
#9,638
#9,638
LaagerVol said:
Agree, so we can march down the field 4-5 yards at a time on him either keeping it or passing it when you sell out on the RB. Again, not the best scenario, but the offense isn't dead in the water as long as there is an actual option.
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Do you really want your QB getting hit by my LBs all game? He's not a natural runner and I'd make sure we hit him every time you ran read option. It's a free shot on the QB.
 
#9,639
#9,639
Darth_Shiveman said:
We don't run a "read option offense," though. We run a spread that features zone read looks. It's been our bread and butter the past few seasons because our strength on offense was RB and Dobbs' legs.

Anyway, QBs who aren't that mobile who've had success in spread offenses similar to ours.

Bryce Petty at Baylor did ok.
Justin Fuente beat Ole Miss with Paxton Lynch
Mason Rudolph is doing pretty well at OSU
Mitch Trubisky put up decent combine numbers, but you'd never have thought he'd do that well just from watching him play at UNC.
Jake Browning at Washington got to the playoffs last year.





You're taking our offense with Dobbs, putting it in a bubble, removing outside factors, and making extrapolations about spread offenses in general based on that. It's bad logic.

A lot of things slowed our offense down at times: our OL couldn't pass block at times, our WR play was inconsistent until last year, Dobbs improved as a passer over his time here, but was always inconsistent in the short and intermediate pass game.

Of course our offense did better when he kept the ball more! He's the best rushing QB in our school's history. The dynamic will be different with a QB with a different skillset though.





That's true. But our offense that year was lacking talent and/or consistency everywhere except OL. And even against opponents who knew all we do was run, we did decently. It stands to reason that an offense with QB and WR talent would have probably seen better rushing numbers to boot, over the course of a season.



You're oversimplifying biglier. Our 2015 rushing game was nearly identical to that 2013 game. Dobbs had 13 carries at 2.69 a pop.


Anyway, it's all moot. Others have pointed out that our run game isn't purely based on the zone read. It's been a big component with Dobbs at QB. Not doing so with him under center would have been coaching malpractice. But you're falsely assuming that our run scheme is centered only around zone read plays. And that just ain't true.
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You're using zone read and spread interchangeably. We ran the zone read MUCH more than those other teams, who were just spread guys. Baylor very rarely ran the zone read with Petty (admittedly I only watched a few of their games). Those other teams you mentioned were spread, throw it 80 times a game offenses. Ours was zone read, qb fakes handoff or keeps, not nearly as much throwing and much less throwing down field than those other teams. Our offense has been nothing like any of those teams since Butch got here.

It looked identical with Dobbs and Worley (as far as play calls, not results), which is why I'm concerned that it'll still look identical with Dormady. Even when Worley kept the ball out offense was better, it wasn't just about Dobbs being a good runner, it was about keeping the defense guessing.

And I don't see how you can say that our offense isn't predicated on the zone read. That was literally 90% of run plays and a large portion of passing plays.
 
#9,640
#9,640
Darth_Shiveman said:
We don't know how much of that was because the coaches were afraid to lose Worley, though. They were trying to keep the guy who gave them the best shot at bowl eligibility healthy.
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That's fair. I don't disagree. I'm not saying coaches were mistaken, I'm saying that offense with an immobile QB won't get us to Atlanta.
 
#9,641
#9,641
jave36 said:
You're using zone read and spread interchangeably. We ran the zone read MUCH more than those other teams, who were just spread guys. Baylor very rarely ran the zone read with Petty (admittedly I only watched a few of their games). Those other teams you mentioned were spread, throw it 80 times a game offenses. Ours was zone read, qb fakes handoff or keeps, not nearly as much throwing and much less throwing down field than those other teams. Our offense has been nothing like any of those teams since Butch got here.

It looked identical with Dobbs and Worley (as far as play calls, not results), which is why I'm concerned that it'll still look identical with Dormady. Even when Worley kept the ball out offense was better, it wasn't just about Dobbs being a good runner, it was about keeping the defense guessing.

And I don't see how you can say that our offense isn't predicated on the zone read. That was literally 90% of run plays and a large portion of passing plays.
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Last year. Won't be this one...no matter who wins the job. There was no resemblance between the Worley and Dobbs versions.
 
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#9,642
#9,642
barrylee said:
Probably why you're not a DC..
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Yeah so you would let him handoff to Kelly who's a big threat I see. Or a let the offense run a slow QB? Give me the QB and blast him all game he'll fumble or they will stop running him to try to save their QB. A QB that doesn't threaten the defense in the read option shouldn't be used in that system. We would have to go under center with him at QB to run the ball effectively.
 
#9,643
#9,643
BJHSVol said:
He ran for 163 yards last year. Kamryn Pettway ran for 1200 in 9 games and their backup ran for another 800 while dealing with an ankle sprain.

Their offensive production was fine until White hurt his arm and basically couldn't throw the ball.
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jave36 said:
They scored less than 20 points in half their games. Again, I'm not saying you'll lose every game, but you're not going to Atlanta with an immobile qb in a zone read offense.
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The didn't score points because they were one dimensional, not because they couldn't run the ball.
 
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#9,644
#9,644
butchna said:
Last year. Won't be this one...no matter who wins the job. There was no resemblance between the Worley and Dobbs versions.
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The offenses were literally identical, just Dobbs got results because he fit the system.
 
#9,646
#9,646
jave36 said:
That's fair. I don't disagree. I'm not saying coaches were mistaken, I'm saying that offense with an immobile QB won't get us to Atlanta.
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If Worley had been keeping it teams still wouldn't have honored him.

Now it's funny people want to say Dormady and JG are similar athletes but we heard about JG breaking a big run in Spring(40+ I want to say). Dormady hasn't done that in any practice reports. If Scott doesn't adjust the offense we won't run well at all with Dormady as the QB. A read option without a real threat at QB is useless.
 
#9,647
#9,647
Smokey123 said:
[Twitter]https://twitter.com/grantramey/status/892521885820493825[/Twitter]
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This guy said on the radio today, that he likes bearded QBs with loose sleeve :)

1202a1vols1_5421503_ver1.0_640_480.jpg



BTW, I really like Ainge and Rice on the radio. Ainge has some insight that we might not otherwise notice, with being a former player, and Rice with the Vol Network, also has some good stories. They are also homers, so a nice change for Knoxville media.
 
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#9,650
#9,650
VFL23 said:
This guy said on the radio today, that he likes bearded QBs with loose sleeve :)

1202a1vols1_5421503_ver1.0_640_480.jpg



BTW, I really like Ainge and Rice on the radio. Ainge has some insight that we might not otherwise notice, with being a former player, and Rice with the Vol Network, also has some good stories. They are also homers, so a nice change for Knoxville media.
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They're by far the best sports radio in Knoxville
 
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