Religious debate (split from main board)

[turambar85]

What kind of ministry were you going into then? Was it not the Christian ministry? Or were you thinking about being a Muslim or Buddist minister? If it was the Christian ministry, then your post makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense if you read it. My post said that the fact that I had experienced things that people call experiencing god is no proof for the existence of god. If it were, then it would also prove thousands of other gods in the worlds past.

There are more dead gods than there are countries!

 

[MWR]

Yes, that was me. I was doing it without having thought about it - I just did what I was used to. I was taught to believe so strongly that the idea that there wasn't a god, or that other religions may be true was foreign to me. So, my experience says nothing. Once I had the taboo broken, and gave it some thought, I realized the error of my ways.

And, no. I'm not only interested in confirming my faith - also, I don't have faith. Please, learn how to give evidence for your views instead of simply stating them - show me why that is true of me and not of you. I enjoy arguing. I enjoy it because it helps me reach truth, and because it is fun. If I am proven wrong, so be it. But, it isn't simply confirmation - I feel like I learn something from interacting with other people and ideas.

You say your experience says nothing. I suppose you are talking about when you say were saved, baptized, and thinking about becoming a minister, etc. And you say you have no soul. And you say there is no God. And you want a debate.

It seems that there are a lot of posters in this thread who say at on time they were christians and now say there is no God and they have no soul. That's sad. Not everyone who says they are christians truly are.

If anyone ever knows Jesus as their personal savior, then you don't have to ask anyone else if you are saved. You know it. It's a personal thing between you and God. And it makes a change in your life.

However, the devil's work is to destroy your faith, your hope, your life and your salvation. And he can tear down anything you may put in his way. But he cannot go past the moment you were saved.

And if you've never been saved, you will probably have difficulty understanding any of this.

So debate is futile. With me, faith and logic can exist together. And to me, faith has a higher place in my life than logic.

 

[turambar85]

Are you substituting reason for evidence?

They are very similar. Any evidence presents a reason for belief - any reason presents a form of evidence.

 

[Oldvol75]

Religious people who don't attach reason to their beliefs are also religious people who don't criticize others for their beliefs. Those, despite being further from myself in logical values, are the ones I respect the most. They're the most consistent and coherent ... and the least hypocritical.

When have we critized your beliefs? As to logic, what you see as illogical, I see as logical, concerning God that is.

 

[BeecherVol]

Religious people who don't attach reason to their beliefs are also religious people who don't criticize others for their beliefs. Those, despite being further from myself in logical values, are the ones I respect the most. They're the most consistent and coherent ... and the least hypocritical.

Thats all they would be, "religious people" by name.

 

[turambar85]

You say your experience says nothing. I suppose you are talking about when you say were saved, baptized, and thinking about becoming a minister, etc. And you say you have no soul. And you say there is no God. And you want a debate.

It seems that there are a lot of posters in this thread who say at on time they were christians and now say there is no God and they have no soul. That's sad. Not everyone who says they are christians truly are.

If anyone ever knows Jesus as their personal savior, then you don't have to ask anyone else if you are saved. You know it. It's a personal thing between you and God. And it makes a change in your life.

However, the devil's work is to destroy your faith, your hope, your life and your salvation. And he can tear down anything you may put in his way. But he cannot go past the moment you were saved.

And if you've never been saved, you will probably have difficulty understanding any of this.

So debate is futile. With me, faith and logic can exist together. And to me, faith has a higher place in my life than logic.

You are what is wrong with Christians today. To say that people weren't christians who say that they are is so pompous, arrogant, and intellectually infantile that it makes you not worth responding to - even in a medium like this. Doesn't your book say something about doing that?

 

[Oldvol75]

It makes perfect sense if you read it. My post said that the fact that I had experienced things that people call experiencing god is no proof for the existence of god. If it were, then it would also prove thousands of other gods in the worlds past.

There are more dead gods than there are countries!

But from my past experiences, I honestly don't think that you really had a true experience, as to salvation. That was the whole meaning behind the post were I said , the parable of the sower. You should have understood what that meant.

 

[turambar85]

Thats all they would be, "religious people" by name.

No, that is very rare. I guarantee that every religious person on this board supports their beliefs with reasons. If they don't then they are hypocritical for arguing religion, and for believing that other religious beliefs are silly, or illogical.

 

[turambar85]

But from my past experiences, I honestly don't think that you really had a true experience, as to salvation. That was the whole meaning behind the post were I said , the parable of the sower. You should have understood what that meant.

Well, put you in the category with him too.

 

[MWR]

You are what is wrong with Christians today. To say that people weren't christians who say that they are is so pompous, arrogant, and intellectually infantile that it makes you not worth responding to - even in a medium like this. Doesn't your book say something about doing that?

It says

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:22-23

 

[Oldvol75]

Well, put you in the category with him too.

Truth hurts sometime. The parable of the sower truly answers this question. Look it up and see.

 

[MWR]

Truth hurts sometime. The parable of the sower truly answers this question. Look it up and see.

It cuts like a two edged sword.

 

[turambar85]

Ok...does anybody with any intellectual capabilities want to talk? I'll be here if anybody steps up to the plate.


Btw, this doesn't include you, Beecher. You're not disingenuous and feeble like certain other posters.

 

[Oldvol75]

85, a follow up to my last post. Then tell me which of the four categories that you would fit into.

 

[Oldvol75]

Ok...does anybody with any intellectual capabilities want to talk? I'll be here if anybody steps up to the plate.


Btw, this doesn't include you, Beecher. You're not disingenuous and feeble like certain other posters.

Why get upset? I thought you enjoy arguing?

Way to go Beecher!!!!!!!:rock::rock:

 

[turambar85]

Why get upset? I thought you enjoy arguing?

Way to go Beecher!!!!!!!:rock::rock:

What you do isn't arguing. I consider an argument a series of at least mildly logical propositions that have some connection to the conclusion.

 

[MWR]

Ok...does anybody with any intellectual capabilities want to talk? I'll be here if anybody steps up to the plate.


Btw, this doesn't include you, Beecher. You're not disingenuous and feeble like certain other posters.

Ouch. Sometimes the word of God cuts and people don't like to get cut. Sometimes they get a little testy.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12

 

[turambar85]

Ouch. Sometimes the word of God cuts and people don't like to get cut. Sometimes they get a little testy.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12

LOL, one last thing. Spouting Bible verses isn't an argument. Go back to church, and leave the debate threads to people who like to entertain ideas and discuss logically related propositions.

 

[MWR]

LOL, one last thing. Spouting Bible verses isn't an argument. Go back to church, and leave the debate threads to people who like to entertain ideas and discuss logically related propositions.

So you say. On the other hand, this is a religious debate thread. Why would bible verses not be appropriate? The reason most don't want to read bible verses is because they hit real close to home.

Besides, you asked me about what "my" book said.

 

[turambar85]

So you say. On the other hand, this is a religious debate thread. Why would bible verses not be appropriate? The reason most don't want to read bible verses is because they hit real close to home.

Besides, you asked me about what my book said.

Bible verses are only valid here in debating theological points. If you can't prove your books legitimacy, then bible verses have no atheist/christian validity. It just doesn't fly - it assumes the thing in question.

Here, I'll explain. If the bible verses have any validity, that means that the bible is correct, which means that god is real and Christianity is right. If that is the case, then the bible verses, to an atheist, are pointless, as they are a small aspect of an overall proven point. If the bible isn't correct, then you are just throwing ink from historical fiction at me. Might as well quote Star Wars.

 

[Oldvol75]

I'll help you here!
1. When one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is the seed by the wayside.

2. But he that received the seed into stoney places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he's offended.

3. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.


4. But he that recieved seed into the good ground is he that heareth the`word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bring forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Consider this my theological point!

 

[Oldvol75]

Bible verses are only valid here in debating theological points. If you can't prove your books legitimacy, then bible verses have no atheist/christian validity. It just doesn't fly - it assumes the thing in question.

Here, I'll explain. If the bible verses have any validity, that means that the bible is correct, which means that god is real and Christianity is right. If that is the case, then the bible verses, to an atheist, are pointless, as they are a small aspect of an overall proven point. If the bible isn't correct, then you are just throwing ink from historical fiction at me. Might as well quote Star Wars.

Is that why you don't want us to use Bible verses.

 

[turambar85]

I'll help you here!
1. When one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is the seed by the wayside.

2. But he that received the seed into stoney places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he's offended.

3. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.


4. But he that recieved seed into the good ground is he that heareth the`word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bring forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Consider this my theological point!

A pointless point because, first, the list isn't exhaustive. Second, I don't see the connection to me. It is not logically impossible to have fit #4 and then come to a point years later when you don't believe.

 

[BeecherVol]

I will be back later.

I know I will be missed.

 

[turambar85]

Is that why you don't want us to use Bible verses.

No, because I have more respect for you than you have for yourself. Arguing in a vicious circle is generally frowned upon, and assuming the very thing you are trying to prove is arguing in a vicious circle.

In other words, no...i don't want you to use the bible verses because the bible is not the word of god because there is no god, so youre doing nothing important in arguing that.