Religious debate (split from main board)

#1,351
#1,351
IPorange said:
There are theories that account for these things. I've mentioned them in this thread before. But let's pretend there isn't.

How is this any different than asking where God came from, and getting the answer "he was always there"?
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Because he said so... :)
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#1,352
#1,352
oklavol said:
I'm not stating to a new theory.

I'm simply saying, if our laws of physics state that energy and mass cannot be created or destroyed, then the fact that they were created is evidence for me, that it was a supernatural event. It was an event that did not obey the laws of physics as we understand them.
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You don't know much about the theories regarding the universe if you think there is any "supernatural event" that violates the laws of physics. Time is not always the linear things as we experience it. Einstein's work demonstrated that. There doesn't have to be an absolute beginning or end, and with the likelihood of antimatter, there may be a net sum of "zero" anyway.
 
#1,355
#1,355
IPorange said:
You don't know much about the theories regarding the universe if you think there is any "supernatural event" that violates the laws of physics. Time is not always the linear things as we experience it. Einstein's work demonstrated that. There doesn't have to be an absolute beginning or end, and with the likelihood of antimatter, there may be a net sum of "zero" anyway.
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There is not a credible theory for how an atom was created in a vacuum. How a proton was first created out of a vacuum. I've repeatedly asked you to state them, but you know as well as I do, that according to physics mass can't be created.
 
#1,357
#1,357
oklavol said:
There is not a credible theory for how an atom was created in a vacuum. How a proton was first created out of a vacuum. I've repeatedly asked you to state them, but you know as well as I do, that according to physics mass can't be created.
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Not true mass can be created and destroyed! E=MC^2

i.g. Mass is lost in the core of a Nuclear (Fission) weapon

Link: Quick read

But i understand your arugement just be sure to say mass-energy cant be created (based on current understanding of physics), There is a interesting theory out there of matter and antimatter, and negative energy and such, that would give the total energy and mass of the universe to be =0. I dont subscribe to it, but its just a valuable theory as yours IMO
 
#1,358
#1,358
T-TownVol said:
I am 100% ready to say that, matter of fact, I believe that I did say that.
Kind of shats on your following statements huh?
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So a creator, giving us moral guidance we could not possibly get on our own, deliberately "creates" people that could not possibly understand them?

ok.

Your entire argument is shat.
 
#1,360
#1,360
rjd970 said:
So a creator, giving us moral guidance we could not possibly get on our own, deliberately "creates" people that could not possibly understand them?

ok.

Your entire argument is shat.
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You are the one arguing and trying to find a reason that I am wrong and that God does not exist. I have no need to understand the "why" as to God's ways. I feel sorry for you that you have that need.
You either believe in God or you don't. Your choice.
Live with it and die with your decision.
Good Luck and God Bless.
 
#1,362
#1,362
Nash270 said:
Not true mass can be created and destroyed! E=MC^2

i.g. Mass is lost in the core of a Nuclear (Fission) weapon

Link: Quick read

But i understand your arugement just be sure to say mass-energy cant be created (based on current understanding of physics), There is a interesting theory out there of matter and antimatter, and negative energy and such, that would give the total energy and mass of the universe to be =0. I dont subscribe to it, but its just a valuable theory as yours IMO
Click to expand...

E =mc^2 scared says mass and energy can be converted from one form to another. But it isn't created or destroyed, it goes from one form to another.
 
#1,363
#1,363
ridethelightening said:
So C of C is legalistic?
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so much so that they would tell you that by making your first "c" a capital one, you are putting the local church on the same level as Christ......that is why I put "c of C" which is the way that we were taught in Bible classes at Lipscomb.
Calling the c of C that I grew up in, and the college that I attended, legalistic is an understatement. There is no mention of a realtionship with Christ. Only the "rules" to get you to heaven.
I am guessing that you are church of Christ. Am I right?
 
#1,364
#1,364
T-TownVol said:
so much so that they would tell you that by making your first "c" a capital one, you are putting the local church on the same level as Christ......that is why I put "c of C" which is the way that we were taught in Bible classes at Lipscomb.
Calling the c of C that I grew up in, and the college that I attended, legalistic is an understatement. There is no mention of a realtionship with Christ. Only the "rules" to get you to heaven.
I am guessing that you are church of Christ. Am I right?
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Yes, and I have never heard your argument about the c being capitalized. However, that one argument does not make a whole Church legalistic.

For 30 years, I have only heard the negatives to the Pharisees or law writers of the Biblical days and their approach to Christianity. Believing that Christians should follow the Bible is not legalistic. There are greater examples in there than just following the law
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#1,365
#1,365
T-TownVol said:
so much so that they would tell you that by making your first "c" a capital one, you are putting the local church on the same level as Christ......that is why I put "c of C" which is the way that we were taught in Bible classes at Lipscomb.
Calling the c of C that I grew up in, and the college that I attended, legalistic is an understatement. There is no mention of a realtionship with Christ. Only the "rules" to get you to heaven.
I am guessing that you are church of Christ. Am I right?
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I'm afraid you weren't paying attention.
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#1,366
#1,366
ridethelightening said:
Yes, and I have never heard your argument about the c being capitalized. However, that one argument does not make a whole Church legalistic.
For 30 years, I have only heard the negatives to the Pharisees or law writers of the Biblical days and their approach to Christianity. Believing that Christians should follow the Bible is not legalistic. There are greater examples in there than just following the law
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I gave you an example from what you typed. There are dozens of examples as to why the c of C is legalistic.
Let me guess again. You are 30 years old?

Let me ask you justa couple of long standing c of C "doctrines and you give me the Biblical verses that back them up.

No instramental music in the worship service.
Communion MUST be taken EVERY Sunday.
Dancing is a sin.
Drinking is a sin.
Here is the biggie.....baptism is a requirement to be saved.

I could go on and on with the extra "fences" that the c of C have built around the "laws" of the Bible.

I am in NO way saying that if you are a member of the c of C, that your are not a Christian or that you are not saved. That is not what "legalistic" means. Most of my extended family on both sides are members. The sad thing is that they think that my wife and kids are not saved "anymore" BECAUSE we no longer attend "THE CHURCH". (be honest, how many times in your 30 years have you heard the fellow members refer to the c of C as "The Church")

I am leaving the computer for a while. Do not think that I am ignoring you. I will answer later.
And, PLEASE, do not give me the standard c of C answer that it is better to create these false laws than to take a chance on going to hell.
 
#1,367
#1,367
T-TownVol said:
1) No instramental music in the worship service.
2) Communion MUST be taken EVERY Sunday.
3) Dancing is a sin.
4) Drinking is a sin.
5) Here is the biggie.....baptism is a requirement to be saved.
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1) No instruments are mentioned in the new testament church. Don't really have an answer to this one other than we are instructed to sing praises and instruments are never mentioned. The Greek Orthodox (a shining example of your legalistic worship) sing acapella.

2) Acts 20:7, "on the first day of the week, when we are gathered together to break bread..."
1 Corinthians 11, Paul instructs in his letter the proper ways to take the Lord's Supper when the Church met. He instructs them to meet on the first day of the week in chapter 16.

3) I do not believe dancing is a sin. Doubt anyone in the Church believes that simply dancing is a sin.

4) I do not believe drinking is a sin. I believe the people in Jesus's day drank wine. Out of necessity more than desire, but they drank it nonetheless

Romans 5 hits on 3 and 4, and we are told several times throughout the NT to refrain from drunkenness and carousing. My belief on drinking is no different than gluttony. Too much is a bad thing. My belief on dancing is it is bad when it leads to sexual desires.

5) Christ felt so strongly about baptism, he was baptized himself
Mark 1:9, "In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven, You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."
1 Peter 3:21, "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
Romans 6:4, "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions."
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#1,368
#1,368
T-TownVol said:
Most of my extended family on both sides are members. The sad thing is that they think that my wife and kids are not saved "anymore" BECAUSE we no longer attend "THE CHURCH". (be honest, how many times in your 30 years have you heard the fellow members refer to the c of C as "The Church")

I am leaving the computer for a while. Do not think that I am ignoring you. I will answer later.
And, PLEASE, do not give me the standard c of C answer that it is better to create these false laws than to take a chance on going to hell.
Click to expand...

It deeply saddens me that this is your outlook on the Church of Christ. I am well aware that there is a sentiment among the older generations in the church that no one outside "the church" will make it to heaven. But that is not for us to decide. I would dare you to find a church that doesn't feel their way is best, however. Why else would its members attend there?

I am also deeply saddened to hear you say that the C of C is making up laws. Never have I heard of this. What laws are we trying to make? We are simply trying to interpret the Bible to the best of our abilities.
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#1,369
#1,369
I was raised going to church (not c of c) but at a young age the dogmas were the seeds to my evential leaving of the church. If their be a God why would he/she/it be concerned about:

1) No instramental music in the worship service.
2) Communion MUST be taken EVERY Sunday.
3) Dancing is a sin.
4) Drinking is a sin.
5) Here is the biggie.....baptism is a requirement to be saved.
 
#1,370
#1,370
I think I have finally found the single greatest response in a thread ever........

Church of Christ is not legalistic...............

I have never read something as sweet as this..........

Thank you lightning........
 
#1,371
#1,371
Nash270 said:
I was raised going to church (not c of c) but at a young age the dogmas were the seeds to my evential leaving of the church. If their be a God why would he/she/it be concerned about:

1) No instramental music in the worship service.
2) Communion MUST be taken EVERY Sunday.
3) Dancing is a sin.
4) Drinking is a sin.
5) Here is the biggie.....baptism is a requirement to be saved.
Click to expand...

Really? So a God who sends his son to die for everyone wouldn't concern himself on the remembering that blood and sacrifice. Or a God who detests sin and wants a relationship with his people wouldn't want them to refrain from sin? Or a God who wants all of us to have an everlasting life with him wouldn't concern himself on how we are to receive it?

It is your choice to believe or unbelieve, but your logic is flawed
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#1,372
#1,372
Let us see where this goes........

When I think of c of c.... I think.........

Creedism

Denominationalism

Isolationism

Judgmentalism

Pharisaism

Sectarianism
 
#1,373
#1,373
ridethelightening said:
Really? So a God who sends his son to die for everyone wouldn't concern himself on the remembering that blood and sacrifice. Or a God who detests sin and wants a relationship with his people wouldn't want them to refrain from sin? Or a God who wants all of us to have an everlasting life with him wouldn't concern himself on how we are to receive it?

It is your choice to believe or unbelieve, but your logic is flawed
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So dancing, communion monthly, yearly etc is a sin?

Is believing that Jesus died for your salvation a sin?

Or is not believing that baptism is the primary saving component a sin?
 
#1,374
#1,374
OrangeEmpire said:
Let us see where this goes........

When I think of c of c.... I think.........

Creedism

Denominationalism

Isolationism

Judgmentalism

Pharisaism

Sectarianism
Click to expand...

Wheni think of the Church of Christ, I think about the Bible and doing as I am instructed. Label it as you will
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#1,375
#1,375
oklavol said:
There is not a credible theory for how an atom was created in a vacuum. How a proton was first created out of a vacuum. I've repeatedly asked you to state them, but you know as well as I do, that according to physics mass can't be created.
Click to expand...

You just quoted me stating one...
 
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