Religious debate (split from main board)

[WA_Vol]

the fundamental laws of physics as humans understand them.

That is where the fundamental disagreement is IMO. I consider it a bigger leap of faith to believe a higher power is behind it all.

Either explanation is mind-boggling though.

As a agnostic, I dont "believe" in anything. I have reasonable assumptions (i.g. Laws of physics) and a set of opinions that are open to change and readjustment as my assumptions change.

I don't have the answers to those questions, only theories and possibilities. If you have faith in something then you must justify and prove it. I cant thus I'm agnostic. Can you without using circular logic?

Science will never explain how matter and energy first appeared out of nothing. The only thing science will tell you is it's not possible. It was a supernatural event.

 

[Nash270]

I appreciate that. I am having a great life here on earth and will have an eternity of pure bliss. Enjoy your eternity.

eternity has always seemed more like a curse than gift IMO. I know the concept is incomprehensible to anyone, but have you ever tried to wrap your head around it? And I like that judgement you just pass out.

Here is one of my favorite quotes from one of our "Christian Founders"

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson 1787 letter to his nephew

 

[Nash270]

Science will never explain how matter and energy first appeared out of nothing. The only thing science will tell you is it's not possible. It was a supernatural event.

ahh great i was hoping to find some one who had all the answer. It all makes sense now!

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" -Carl Sagan

 

[WA_Vol]

ahh great i was hoping to find some one who had all the answer. It all makes sense now!

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" -Carl Sagan

A supernatural event is the only explanation. You just aren't ready to accept that.

 

[Nash270]

A supernatural event is the only explanation. You just aren't ready to accept that.

As i posted earlier, I've tried, and i WANT to accept that. If it makes you feel better I by no means have ruled it out as a possibility, but Maybe you missed the quote, which perfectly describes my conundrum...

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" -Carl Sagan

 

[Brog]

Big LOL at the Christian responses pretty much saying "hope you enjoy hell :smug:" after I said I try to get more out of life.

 

[CardsNVols]

Science will never explain how matter and energy first appeared out of nothing. The only thing science will tell you is it's not possible. It was a supernatural event.

Um, science tells us that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. So you answer these things through supernatual possibilities, i see, fair enough.

Me, I'm an atheist, i honestly don't believe there is a supreme being. But, i do believe in supernatural. But supernatural to me doesn't mean there's an invisible man in the sky who created the entire universe in 6 days. It means i believe that there are things in this universe that the human mind is incapable of understanding, or seeing, or comprehending. And IMO, therein lies many of the answers we wish to seek.

 

[T-TownVol]

eternity has always seemed more like a curse than gift IMO. I know the concept is incomprehensible to anyone, but have you ever tried to wrap your head around it? And I like that judgement you just pass out.

Here is one of my favorite quotes from one of our "Christian Founders"

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson 1787 letter to his nephew

That quote is telling his nephew not to believe in God blindly. Thanks for helping make my point.

The ole, "you are judging me" crap again. Nice!
The fate that you are choosing is not my judgement.

 

[T-TownVol]

Big LOL at the Christian responses pretty much saying "hope you enjoy hell :smug:" after I said I try to get more out of life.

There is no eternity, right?
The "I get more out of life" is a crutch. Enjoy it while you can.

 

[IPorange]

My original comment was not to you. The second one was since you corrected me.
You are correct we can not have honest discourse. The theories that you spew here are not based in honesty.

You are the type of person that gives Christians a bad reputation.

 

[IPorange]

Science will never explain how matter and energy first appeared out of nothing. The only thing science will tell you is it's not possible. It was a supernatural event.

It's been claimed that science will never be able to explain a lot of things by theists over the centuries.

And the last thing science claims is that an observed phenomenon is "impossible" and then walks away. We'd still be in the Dark Ages if that were the case.

I've mentioned science's explanation for the universe. If you don't believe it or don't understand it, that's fine. But don't claim that there isn't a scientific explanation even offered.

 

[T-TownVol]

You are the type of person that gives Christians a bad reputation.

Sometimes you have to tell it like it is. Jesus did that when need be ya know.
It is kind of like being a parent....if you are worried about being a "best friend", the point will not get across. To use your own words, "If you don't believe it or don't understand it, that's fine. But don't claim that there isn't a Biblical explanation even offered".

 

[rjd970]

[/B]

and......just where do these "morals" come from.....what would be your "model"

Common sense and who you are have a lot to do with it.

LOL at the notion you need some sort of religious belief to be a good person, or that religious morality is the only model for defining what is good and bad. This is to say nothing of the fact that just because some beliefs may have some moral utility it tells us absolutely nothing about the validity of said belief, or that they are even right.

I don't expect you to understand that notion in your bubble of christian psuedo-moral high ground.

 

[T-TownVol]

Common sense and who you are have a lot to do with it.

LOL at the notion you need some sort of religious belief to be a good person, or that religious morality is the only model for defining what is good and bad. This is to say nothing of the fact that just because some beliefs may have some moral utility it tells us absolutely nothing about the validity of said belief, or that they are even right.

I don't expect you to understand that notion in your bubble of christian psuedo-moral high ground.

Does this statement make you feel better?

Where did I say that you need a religious belief to have good morals. The question is, where do morals come from? Man has no morals that he is "born with". The answer is, the creator. Man is not inhierantly a moral person. In fact, it is the exact opposite.
I have never claimed any "high ground". I have only claimed that God is real and is the source of all things.
You are the one that needs some kind of tangible proof and that is sad.

 

[WA_Vol]

It's been claimed that science will never be able to explain a lot of things by theists over the centuries.

And the last thing science claims is that an observed phenomenon is "impossible" and then walks away. We'd still be in the Dark Ages if that were the case.

I've mentioned science's explanation for the universe. If you don't believe it or don't understand it, that's fine. But don't claim that there isn't a scientific explanation even offered.

Science has never explained how the first atom was created out of nothing, and it never will because the the laws of physics as we understand them state energy and mass cannot be created or destoryed.

The arguement most atheists I know make, well the atoms were always there.

Then there is the other big question, why did the big bang not create any entropy? The laws of physics state every known process has entropy associated with it. Yet the big bang created a universe with zero entropy?

It was a supernatural event.

 

[rjd970]

[/B]

Does this statement make you feel better?

Where did I say that you need a religious belief to have good morals. The question is, where do morals come from? Man has no morals that he is "born with". The answer is, the creator. Man is not inhierantly a moral person. In fact, it is the exact opposite.
I have never claimed any "high ground". I have only claimed that God is real and is the source of all things.
You are the one that needs some kind of tangible proof and that is sad.

So I guess you are also willing to say that the creator is responsible for people that are born psychopaths and anti-social personalitites, that have no capability to understand the morals he wants them to supposedly follow?

Baloney. You're not about to admit that, so lets admit this whole "morals from a creator" is complete nonsense. Man is inherently a social creature, and obvious moral qualities are valued. Even in apes, things like stealing and murder are frowned upon. It all comes down to common sense and what constitutes suffering. Heck, almost half the 10 commandments have nothing at all to do with real morality, so lets be honest here. When it comes to morality, the only thing religious beliefs have done is slapped a "creator" sticker on it and claimed it as its own.

 

[T-TownVol]

So I guess you are also willing to say that the creator is responsible for people that are born psychopaths and anti-social personalitites, that have no capability to understand the morals he wants them to supposedly follow?

Baloney. You're not about to admit that, so lets admit this whole "morals from a creator" is complete nonsense. Man is inherently a social creature, and obvious moral qualities are valued. Even in apes, things like stealing and murder are frowned upon. It all comes down to common sense and what constitutes suffering. Heck, almost half the 10 commandments have nothing at all to do with real morality, so lets be honest here. When it comes to morality, the only thing religious beliefs have done is slapped a "creator" sticker on it and claimed it as its own.

I am 100% ready to say that, matter of fact, I believe that I did say that.
Kind of shats on your following statements huh?

 

[Nash270]

That quote is telling his nephew not to believe in God blindly. Thanks for helping make my point.

The ole, "you are judging me" crap again. Nice!
The fate that you are choosing is not my judgement.

Jefferson himself questioned the idea of God, even in that very quote he leaves the idea of no God on the table. Jefferson is and has been one of my heros, dont insinuate he was anything more than a agnostic.

There is no eternity, right?
The "I get more out of life" is a crutch. Enjoy it while you can.

Many, including myself, would simply reverse that and say religion and faith are a crutch for people who cant handle the idea this life is it. Stay off the two-way streets, fear is not a means to debate. I enjoy a good discussion about the subject, in fact i would love to been proven wrong, seriously. But your style of denouncing ideas as "shat" and telling others to be scared of a hell that they dont believe in, is a waste of everyones time including yours.

Science has never explained how the first atom was created out of nothing, and it never will because the the laws of physics as we understand them state energy and mass cannot be created or destoryed.

The arguement most atheists I know make, well the atoms were always there.

Then there is the other big question, why did the big bang not create any entropy? The laws of physics state every known process has entropy associated with it. Yet the big bang created a universe with zero entropy?

It was a supernatural event.

Lets say for a minute you are right, in that science has no idea nor ever will have a clue how things began. How under any circumstances does that prove your idea?? Why do you think a disproval of one theory automaticaly proves another.

 

[ridethelightening]

Shooooot.......those panzies are liberals compared to the c of C where I grew up

Do explain....
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[T-TownVol]

Do explain....
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Inside joke between OE and I about which one of us grew up in the more legalistic church.
Thankfully, neither one of us are a part of that "style" now.

 

[T-TownVol]

Jefferson himself questioned the idea of God, even in that very quote he leaves the idea of no God on the table. Jefferson is and has been one of my heros, dont insinuate he was anything more than a agnostic.

Ah....OK!




Many, including myself, would simply reverse that and say religion and faith are a crutch for people who cant handle the idea this life is it. Stay off the two-way streets, fear is not a means to debate. I enjoy a good discussion about the subject, in fact i would love to been proven wrong, seriously. But your style of denouncing ideas as "shat" and telling others to be scared of a hell that they dont believe in, is a waste of everyones time including yours.

Now, that is STRONG!
I do not believe that you are open to be "proven" anything. See, that is the difference here. God is not going to try and prove things to you. He only asks that you have faith. I know, I know, you think that I am not as "educated" as you for this belief. That is fine with me.
Fear of hell is real. It is your choice. Sorry I wasted your time in as much as you felt the need to respond.

Have a great day!

 

[WA_Vol]

Jefferson himself questioned the idea of God, even in that very quote he leaves the idea of no God on the table. Jefferson is and has been one of my heros, dont insinuate he was anything more than a agnostic.




Many, including myself, would simply reverse that and say religion and faith are a crutch for people who cant handle the idea this life is it. Stay off the two-way streets, fear is not a means to debate. I enjoy a good discussion about the subject, in fact i would love to been proven wrong, seriously. But your style of denouncing ideas as "shat" and telling others to be scared of a hell that they dont believe in, is a waste of everyones time including yours.



Lets say for a minute you are right, in that science has no idea nor ever will have a clue how things began. How under any circumstances does that prove your idea?? Why do you think a disproval of one theory automaticaly proves another.

I'm not stating to a new theory.

I'm simply saying, if our laws of physics state that energy and mass cannot be created or destroyed, then the fact that they were created is evidence for me, that it was a supernatural event. It was an event that did not obey the laws of physics as we understand them.

 

[ridethelightening]

Inside joke between OE and I about which one of us grew up in the more legalistic church.
Thankfully, neither one of us are a part of that "style" now.

And what "style" would that be?
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[IPorange]

Science has never explained how the first atom was created out of nothing, and it never will because the the laws of physics as we understand them state energy and mass cannot be created or destoryed.

The arguement most atheists I know make, well the atoms were always there.

Then there is the other big question, why did the big bang not create any entropy? The laws of physics state every known process has entropy associated with it. Yet the big bang created a universe with zero entropy?

It was a supernatural event.

There are theories that account for these things. I've mentioned them in this thread before. But let's pretend there isn't.

How is this any different than asking where God came from, and getting the answer "he was always there"?

 

[ridethelightening]

Big LOL at the Christian responses pretty much saying "hope you enjoy hell :smug:" after I said I try to get more out of life.

A big LOL at your screen name and taking offense to someone telling you to enjoy hell...
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