Religious debate (split from main board)

[ridethelightening]

So dancing, communion monthly, yearly etc is a sin?

Is believing that Jesus died for your salvation a sin?

Or is not believing that baptism is the primary saving component a sin?

The CoC does not believe this

Not sure where you are going
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[WA_Vol]

You just quoted me stating one...

E =mc^2 says energy can be converted to mass and mass can be converted to energy. It doesn't say energy or mass can be created or destroyed. It simply says it can be converted from one form to the other.

 

[IPorange]

E =mc^2 says energy can be converted to mass and mass can be converted to energy. It doesn't say energy or mass can be created or destroyed. It simply says it can be converted from one form to the other.

And I am saying the net sum may be "zero." Therefore nothing was actually created.

Again, I never claimed that all the answers were known.

I'm still waiting to hear where God came from.

 

[WA_Vol]

I'm still waiting to hear where God came from.

You would have to ask him.

 

[IPorange]

You would have to ask him.

You sure showed me.

 

[T-TownVol]

1) No instruments are mentioned in the new testament church. Don't really have an answer to this one other than we are instructed to sing praises and instruments are never mentioned. The Greek Orthodox (a shining example of your legalistic worship) sing acapella.

2) Acts 20:7, "on the first day of the week, when we are gathered together to break bread..."
1 Corinthians 11, Paul instructs in his letter the proper ways to take the Lord's Supper when the Church met. He instructs them to meet on the first day of the week in chapter 16.

3) I do not believe dancing is a sin. Doubt anyone in the Church believes that simply dancing is a sin.

4) I do not believe drinking is a sin. I believe the people in Jesus's day drank wine. Out of necessity more than desire, but they drank it nonetheless

Romans 5 hits on 3 and 4, and we are told several times throughout the NT to refrain from drunkenness and carousing. My belief on drinking is no different than gluttony. Too much is a bad thing. My belief on dancing is it is bad when it leads to sexual desires.

5) Christ felt so strongly about baptism, he was baptized himself
Mark 1:9, "In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven, You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."
1 Peter 3:21, "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
Romans 6:4, "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions."
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Let me state again, that I have not said that there is anything WRONG with a demonimation being legalistic.
Just be man enough to admit it. jesus came to earth and TOLD us that there is no need to be that way any more. Anyway......
1) You just admitted that your, the coC's, stance on music is legalistic AND you have no idea why.
2) You are putting two passages together to justify your stance on the Lord's Supper. The Bible never says that we are to observe it every "first day of the week". The Bible just says that "WHEN we gather together TO observe the "Supper" this is the way to do it. (made up coC "rule")
3) It is 100% fact that the act of dancing is concidered a sin by the coC. Reason that they give....it leads to immoral thoughts and actions. (do your high school kids go to the prom or does the church plan another activity on the same night?) made up coC rule
4) I did not ask what YOU believed. Go to an elder and ask him if drinking and dancing is a sin. (While your at it, mention that you are considering attending a different denomination and see what he says, I guarentee you that he will say that you are leaving "the church")
5) You did not answer the question......Is a person saved if they have not been baptised?

 

[T-TownVol]

It deeply saddens me that this is your outlook on the Church of Christ. I am well aware that there is a sentiment among the older generations in the church that no one outside "the church" will make it to heaven. But that is not for us to decide. I would dare you to find a church that doesn't feel their way is best, however. Why else would its members attend there?

I am also deeply saddened to hear you say that the C of C is making up laws. Never have I heard of this. What laws are we trying to make? We are simply trying to interpret the Bible to the best of our abilities.
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It is hard to "hear" anything other than the c of C "company" line if you have always been in that church. Why do you think that your church only associates with other c of Cs. They do not want you to know what other denominations believe. Have you ever attended, for a long period of time, any other denomination?

Speaking of denomination, the c of C does not think that it is one. They think that they ARE "the church".

As to making up laws. Please tell me what is required, bare minimum, to receive salvation.
It is OK to interpret the Bible as you wish. Please realike that alot of the things that the c of C tells you will send you to hell, simply are not true.

Here is the truth, since I left the c of C, I have lived in three different cities. I have not had any trouble finding multiple churchs that do not think that "thier way" is the only way to heaven. The Pastor at my current church tells members, from the pulpit, that he/we do not have all the answers. PLEASE do not get caught up in the lie that "all churches feel THIER way is the best". That is a church of Christ, and many other legalistic denominations, way of keeping you in the pew.

 

[T-TownVol]

What laws are we trying to make?
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Here is another example for you......my Dad served as a deacon for 7 years and then served as an elder for 10 years at the c of C where I grew up. My Mom contracted cancer and after a two year battle, passed away. One week after the funeral, the two other elders and the 10 deacons called him in for a meeting. The told him that he way no longer and elder. That he was no longer "the husband of one wife". Therefore, no longer "qualified" to hold the office.
Tell me how that is not making up a "law" that is not in the Bible. Now, before you throw the "that was just that congregation's interpretation". They called the president of Lipscomb and that was his "interpretation" of what the Bible says.
Side note: My Dad complied with the request, even though he did not agree, so as not to cause a problem in the church.

Seriously Lightning....the only people that do not consider the c of C to be leaglistic, are it's own members.

 

[ridethelightening]

T-Town, all I can say is your experience in the Church has been totally different than mine. The examples you have listed are in no way representative to how I have been taught, nor are they representative to how I feel my Elders would handle them.

It is not the first time that I have disagreed with what I was hearing being said by Lipscomb community.

 

[T-TownVol]

T-Town, all I can say is your experience in the Church has been totally different than mine. The examples you have listed are in no way representative to how I have been taught, nor are they representative to how I feel my Elders would handle them.

It is not the first time that I have disagreed with what I was hearing being said by Lipscomb community.

That is good to hear. I am glad that the body of believers that you worship with are not like the main stream c of C.
Many of the congregations in middle TN have dropped the "c of C" from thier name for these exact reasons that I have stated.
One word of caution....you mention that you do not "feel" that your elders would think or act this way. Go to them and ask these types of questions. You should KNOW what they think. My wife never thought that her mother would not talk to her for over a year, bu that is exactly what happened when we left the c of C.

 

[ridethelightening]

1) You just admitted that your, the coC's, stance on music is legalistic AND you have no idea why.

No, I clearly typed out why I believed the Church has this stance.

2) You are putting two passages together to justify your stance on the Lord's Supper. The Bible never says that we are to observe it every "first day of the week". The Bible just says that "WHEN we gather together TO observe the "Supper" this is the way to do it. (made up coC "rule")

When did we put a rule on not being able to read the whole Bible to make our interpretations? And the first passage clearly says, "when you come together on the first day of the week to break bread."

3) It is 100% fact that the act of dancing is concidered a sin by the coC. Reason that they give....it leads to immoral thoughts and actions. (do your high school kids go to the prom or does the church plan another activity on the same night?) made up coC rule

No, we do not have a separate event on Prom night and I, along with most, attended Prom. I am by no means perfect, and probably the last person that needs to be arguing over the right and wrongs of the world because I make my mistakes. That said, when I went out to the club, it was for immoral reasons.

4) I did not ask what YOU believed. Go to an elder and ask him if drinking and dancing is a sin. (While your at it, mention that you are considering attending a different denomination and see what he says, I guarentee you that he will say that you are leaving "the church")

I have been involved in thousands of conversations on the issue of drinking with Elders present and all them have the differences of opinion, of course. The majority of the time, however, the act of drinking is not the sin. It is the over use and the causing a brother to stumble that is the sin.

5) You did not answer the question......Is a person saved if they have not been baptised?

Yes, by the versus I have listed, I feel that baptism is essential to being saved. I do not feel that is the only act required, but it is essential

 

[WA_Vol]

I grew of going to the C of C and had similar experiences.

It did seem that they believed everyone outside the C of C was damned. They also focused on judgement from God and motivating the congregation through fear of going to hell. They believed in a vengeful, wrathful God more then a loving, forgiving God. :twocents:

 

[T-TownVol]

No, I clearly typed out why I believed the Church has this stance.



When did we put a rule on not being able to read the whole Bible to make our interpretations? And the first passage clearly says, "when you come together on the first day of the week to break bread."



No, we do not have a separate event on Prom night and I, along with most, attended Prom. I am by no means perfect, and probably the last person that needs to be arguing over the right and wrongs of the world because I make my mistakes. That said, when I went out to the club, it was for immoral reasons.



I have been involved in thousands of conversations on the issue of drinking with Elders present and all them have the differences of opinion, of course. The majority of the time, however, the act of drinking is not the sin. It is the over use and the causing a brother to stumble that is the sin.



Yes, by the versus I have listed, I feel that baptism is essential to being saved. I do not feel that is the only act required, but it is essential

So, let me get this straight, by not being the ONLY act required, if left out one is not saved? You are dancing around the question.

 

[T-TownVol]

I grew of going to the C of C and had similar experiences.

It did seem that they believed everyone outside the C of C was damned. They also focused on judgement from God and motivating the congregation through fear of going to hell. They believed in a vengeful, wrathful God more then a loving, forgiving God. :twocents:

Like the "Giant Scoreboard in the Sky"!
You better pray for forgiveness of the days sins before you go to sleep at night. If you don't and you die in your sleep.....hell for you!

 

[BeecherVol]

And I am saying the net sum may be "zero." Therefore nothing was actually created.

Again, I never claimed that all the answers were known.

I'm still waiting to hear where God came from.

Why does that matter?

If you scientifically understood God and knew everything about him, what would make him God?

Wouldn't that make me God?

 

[T-TownVol]

And I am saying the net sum may be "zero." Therefore nothing was actually created.

Again, I never claimed that all the answers were known.

I'm still waiting to hear where God came from.

Why does that matter?

If you scientifically understood God and knew everything about him, what would make him God?

Wouldn't that make me God?

I always heard that Cheathem County IS God's country.

 

[BeecherVol]

Ha! It has it parts.

County moto.

"If you can't beat em', cheat-em'."

 

[OrangeEmpire]

That didn't go any where, that sucks.

Oh well, in conclusion,

There is one thing that most of these Christian legalists have in common: They all assume that any others that do not see things their way are not even Christian. They claim to be in the body of Christ but their doctrine and their actions attack people that are actually in the body of Christ.

All of these legalistic groups have at least some knowledge of the scriptures and some have a great deal of knowledge of what the Bible says. So what is the problem here? The problem is they can read scripture but they cannot comprehend it. They cannot correlate what they read with other passages of Scripture in their black light. That is true of the world in general because light from the Holy Spirit is required to properly discern scripture passages. The reason they do not have light is they want to be acceptable to God by obedience and their works instead of by the new law. If they came to Jesus this way they have never been saved.

Those who find themselves in these groups would be very wise to try to find out for themselves why Christians say they teach a doctrine of works and they are legalistic. Arguing a position from the doctrine that you were spoonfed will not bring you enlightenment. It will only bring further bondage. If your doctrine can stand in the light it will stand, but if the doctrine of your sect is darkness, that will be discovered in the true light. If you are open to truth, you will then be able to see the way out. However, if you wish to be wise in your own eyes and teach people some path to Hell, you will bring upon yourself a harsher judgment.

Christians who find themselves in a legalistic church or under legalistic teachers really need to leave. There is almost no chance that you can change them but there can be a few exceptions in those churches where the doctrine is not well established. The new law gives Christians the freedom in Christ that Jesus gives.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

I love the c of c argument. Does Jesus save you?

Answer-No, Jesus and baptism saves you....... so who or what do you have faith in?

 

[Nash270]

Really? So a God who sends his son to die for everyone wouldn't concern himself on the remembering that blood and sacrifice. Or a God who detests sin and wants a relationship with his people wouldn't want them to refrain from sin? Or a God who wants all of us to have an everlasting life with him wouldn't concern himself on how we are to receive it?

It is your choice to believe or unbelieve, but your logic is flawed
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my logic? You made so many assumptions in your post i dont know where to begin. Let me just ask a question for every sentence. Remember im not claiming to have ANY answers, you are.

Why would a God have a son? If he(as you refer to him as a him) is so concerned about being reconized and having a relationship (is he lonely?) why doesnt he tell us? If he doesnt want us to sin why create sin, or the desire to do so? Why did he create us so we can have everlasting life? just make us all angels to begin with. Does he just want a laugh out of us first?

I know most responses will just refer the bible. So just ignore if your response reverts back to circular logic.

 

[ridethelightening]

I love the c of c argument. Does Jesus save you?

Answer-No, Jesus and baptism saves you....... so who or what do you have faith in?

I don't think you can say Jesus AND baptism saves. Jesus death on the cross gave us all a chance at salvation. We obtain that salvation by taking on a newness of life through baptism. It is an act of our belief that Christ died on the cross for the remission of our sins.

Jesus saved us all but we have to believe and we have to act. We must be washed in the blood
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[IPorange]

Why does that matter?

If you scientifically understood God and knew everything about him, what would make him God?

Wouldn't that make me God?

I have no idea. I just don't understand why people of faith try to act like their beliefs are rational, and rational beliefs are irrational.
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[OrangeEmpire]

Ha!

What is rational?

 

[OrangeEmpire]

I don't think you can say Jesus AND baptism saves. Jesus death on the cross gave us all a chance at salvation. We obtain that salvation by taking on a newness of life through baptism. It is an act of our belief that Christ died on the cross for the remission of our sins.

Jesus saved us all but we have to believe and we have to act. We must be washed in the blood
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So baptism is the action that saves you, not Jesus?

 

[ridethelightening]

my logic? You made so many assumptions in your post i dont know where to begin. Let me just ask a question for every sentence. Remember im not claiming to have ANY answers, you are.

Why would a God have a son? If he(as you refer to him as a him) is so concerned about being reconized and having a relationship (is he lonely?) why doesnt he tell us? If he doesnt want us to sin why create sin, or the desire to do so? Why did he create us so we can have everlasting life? just make us all angels to begin with. Does he just want a laugh out of us first?

I know most responses will just refer the bible. So just ignore if your response reverts back to circular logic.

To begin with, this is by no means what you originally said. Secondly, a lot of the things you said in this post I struggle with myself. Or have struggled with.
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