Religious debate (split from main board)

#1,426
#1,426
IPorange said:
I just don't know how people can intellectually justify criticizing someone for not having all the answers in a atheistic world view, when a theistic world view is by definition just filling in any blanks with "God" and "because he's God."
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+1

All this talk about not being able to explain "something from nothing" is beyond stupid.
 
#1,428
#1,428
T-TownVol said:
That is exactly what I have been saying. The love of Christ and the Church is what motivates us to do good works and to do our best to live a life that mirrors him. These works are not what saves us, they are what are commanded of the believer AFTER salvation.
Living a perfect life is not possible, but it in no way puts my salvation in danger.
Seriously, do you not see that?
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Did I say you had to live a perfect life? You are confusing yourself here. You said that someone can be saved, but denounce God and lose their salvation. However, you also say that all someone has to do is believe to receive salvation. The person believed at some point in your first scenario.
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#1,429
#1,429
KB5252 said:
Please explain why this so stupid IYO, I've been away from this discussion for some time.
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It is just what IP said. On one side you have a crowd saying that science can't explain how something came from nothing, while at the same time claiming "God did it" is some sort of better explanation. It's bogus. It is far more intellectually honest to say "I don't know" (which is what scientists are essentially doing) then to claim some mythical creator is behind it all. We should all just say we don't know, then to play this nonsensical game about what takes more "faith" to believe.

Then to take it further and say Christianity or anything else best explains him is asinine byeond description. Because whatever probability you place on a creator being behind everything, you have to place an even lower probability that said creator sent his son to die for what amounts to be real sins sprinkled in with some thought crimes and false moral precepts that have no bearing on real morality....or that said creator decided to spill the beans through an angel to a epileptic pedophile in a cave somewhere in the middle east...etc.

But whatever the case, let's not dilute ourselves into thinking some manmade religion is the best descriptor for explaining the exotic cosmic unknowns, or that it is any better then any other avenue we are currently using to solve these riddles.
 
#1,430
#1,430
rjd970 said:
It is just what IP said. On one side you have a crowd saying that science can't explain how something came from nothing, while at the same time claiming "God did it" is some sort of better explanation. It's bogus. It is far more intellectually honest to say "I don't know" (which is what scientists are essentially doing) then to claim some mythical creator is behind it all. We should all just say we don't know, then to play this nonsensical game about what takes more "faith" to believe.

Then to take it further and say Christianity or anything else best explains him is asinine byeond description. Because whatever probability you place on a creator being behind everything, you have to place an even lower probability that said creator sent his son to die for what amounts to be real sins sprinkled in with some thought crimes and false moral precepts that have no bearing on real morality....or that said creator decided to spill the beans through an angel to a epileptic pedophile in a cave somewhere in the middle east...etc.

But whatever the case, let's not dilute ourselves into thinking some manmade religion is the best descriptor for explaining the exotic cosmic unknowns, or that it is any better then any other avenue we are currently using to solve these riddles.
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But only Christians make assumptions
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#1,431
#1,431
rjd970 said:
But whatever the case, let's not dilute ourselves into thinking some manmade religion is the best descriptor for explaining the exotic cosmic unknowns, or that it is any better then any other avenue we are currently using to solve these riddles.
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Once again, you assume Christianity is man made. If you believed, you wouldn't make that assumption.
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#1,432
#1,432
ridethelightening said:
Once again, you assume Christianity is man made. If you believed, you wouldn't make that assumption.
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Once again, you assume it isn't, based on faith.

Do you assume Islam is manmade? If so, why?

...and all of this assumption silliness still doesn't address the original point that your theological explanation is any better than anything else and in fact probably worse because the other method leaves room for better explanations.
 
#1,433
#1,433
rjd970 said:
Once again, you assume it isn't, based on faith.

Do you assume Islam is manmade? If so, why?

...and all of this assumption silliness still doesn't address the original point that your theological explanation is any better than anything else and in fact probably worse because the other method leaves room for better explanations.
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Do explain. Without your assumptions
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#1,434
#1,434
rjd970 said:
It is just what IP said. On one side you have a crowd saying that science can't explain how something came from nothing, while at the same time claiming "God did it" is some sort of better explanation. It's bogus. It is far more intellectually honest to say "I don't know" (which is what scientists are essentially doing) then to claim some mythical creator is behind it all. We should all just say we don't know, then to play this nonsensical game about what takes more "faith" to believe.

Then to take it further and say Christianity or anything else best explains him is asinine byeond description. Because whatever probability you place on a creator being behind everything, you have to place an even lower probability that said creator sent his son to die for what amounts to be real sins sprinkled in with some thought crimes and false moral precepts that have no bearing on real morality....or that said creator decided to spill the beans through an angel to a epileptic pedophile in a cave somewhere in the middle east...etc.

But whatever the case, let's not dilute ourselves into thinking some manmade religion is the best descriptor for explaining the exotic cosmic unknowns, or that it is any better then any other avenue we are currently using to solve these riddles.
Click to expand...

No, what science is saying we know the mass and energy for the big bang is enormous but we would rather say we don't know where it came from then admit that it might have been a supernatural force involved in creating the universe. I don't see how that is more intellectually honest.
 
#1,436
#1,436
ridethelightening said:
Do explain. Without your assumptions
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Is there any doubt in your mind a creator is the cause? And for that matter, that said creator is of the Christian persuasion?

The scientific approach is much more open ended.

It boils down to the fact that with one method certainty and absolutes are rare, and the other they are abound...and even championed in the face of overwhelming evidence against it....all in the name of "faith is a virtue".
 
#1,437
#1,437
rjd970 said:
Once again, you assume it isn't, based on faith.

Do you assume Islam is manmade? If so, why?

...and all of this assumption silliness still doesn't address the original point that your theological explanation is any better than anything else and in fact probably worse because the other method leaves room for better explanations.
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I do believe Islam is man made because I believe there is only one way to Heaven. Through the blood of Christ.

Fact is, you believe is something just like I do. You believe in something you can't for 100% certainty explain. You have to put your faith in something you can't prove.
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#1,438
#1,438
oklavol said:
No, what science is saying we know the mass and energy for the big bang is enormous but we would rather say we don't know where it came from then admit that it might have been a supernatural force involved in creating the universe. I don't see how that is more intellectually honest.
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This is where the whole "spaghetti monster" thing came in. Prove that it wasn't a Spaghetti Monster that set off the Big Bang, etc.

Saying something is "supernatural" is silly, in this day and age. We've shown that so many things claimed to be "supernatural" are not.
 
#1,439
#1,439
oklavol said:
No, what science is saying we know the mass and energy for the big bang is enormous but we would rather say we don't know where it came from then admit that it might have been a supernatural force involved in creating the universe. I don't see how that is more intellectually honest.
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Who said a "supernatural" (ie..."unknown") force is ruled out? They are just saying there is nothing to suggest it was your God that did it.
 
#1,440
#1,440
rjd970 said:
Is there any doubt in your mind a creator is the cause? And for that matter, that said creator is of the Christian persuasion?

The scientific approach is much more open ended.

It boils down to the fact that with one method certainty and absolutes are rare, and the other they are abound...and even championed in the face of overwhelming evidence against it....all in the name of "faith is a virtue".
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I believe there is a God and he sent his Son to die for me
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#1,441
#1,441
ridethelightening said:
Did I say you had to live a perfect life? You are confusing yourself here. You said that someone can be saved, but denounce God and lose their salvation. However, you also say that all someone has to do is believe to receive salvation. The person believed at some point in your first scenario.
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Your desire to defend the c of C is at play here. It is you that is confused. I never said anything about "having" to live a perfect life. I said that because we are saved we TRY to live a perfect life out of our love for Christ. That it is not attainable no matter how hard we try.
The Bible is very clear that the ONLY way that we can lose our salvation is to publically denounce him. (which is what I get on all these athiests around here for)
As for the person believing "at some point", that would be the reason that they can LOSE the salvation if they denounce.
The "legalistic" and "salvation through works/deeds" of your background in the c of C is shining through with your responses. Truely, you are making your relationship with God waaaay to complicated.
 
#1,442
#1,442
ridethelightening said:
I do believe Islam is man made because I believe there is only one way to Heaven. Through the blood of Christ.

Fact is, you believe is something just like I do. You believe in something you can't for 100% certainty explain. You have to put your faith in something you can't prove.
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Click to expand...

So do you. The difference is I don't pretend to be 100% certain.
 
#1,443
#1,443
ridethelightening said:
I do believe Islam is man made because I believe there is only one way to Heaven. Through the blood of Christ.

Fact is, you believe is something just like I do. You believe in something you can't for 100% certainty explain. You have to put your faith in something you can't prove.
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well said
 
#1,444
#1,444
IPorange said:
This is where the whole "spaghetti monster" thing came in. Prove that it wasn't a Spaghetti Monster that set off the Big Bang, etc.

Saying something is "supernatural" is silly, in this day and age. We've shown that so many things claimed to be "supernatural" are not.
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Which only adds to the power of God
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#1,448
#1,448
IPorange said:
This is where the whole "spaghetti monster" thing came in. Prove that it wasn't a Spaghetti Monster that set off the Big Bang, etc.

Saying something is "supernatural" is silly, in this day and age. We've shown that so many things claimed to be "supernatural" are not.
Click to expand...

Saying something is supernatural is silly, but saying the big bang doesnt have to obey the physics laws of conservation of mass and energy, but is a viable theory isn't?
 
#1,449
#1,449
T-TownVol said:
But, you are 100% certain that a Christian is wrong?

Are you willing to bet your eternity on it?
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I'm not ruling out anything, but I am sure enough that I have no problem making that bet, just the way you make the same bet bet with regard to any other religion. Your the same "atheist" with regard to any other religion...the difference is I just take it one God further than you do.
 
#1,450
#1,450
T-TownVol said:
Your desire to defend the c of C is at play here. It is you that is confused. I never said anything about "having" to live a perfect life. I said that because we are saved we TRY to live a perfect life out of our love for Christ. That it is not attainable no matter how hard we try.
The Bible is very clear that the ONLY way that we can lose our salvation is to publically denounce him. (which is what I get on all these athiests around here for)
As for the person believing "at some point", that would be the reason that they can LOSE the salvation if they denounce.
The "legalistic" and "salvation through works/deeds" of your background in the c of C is shining through with your responses. Truely, you are making your relationship with God waaaay to complicated.
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Yes, I am defending the Church of Christ because I believe in it. We have enough detractors (as in this thread) to separate ourselves the way we have. My only beef with you is you keep saying we are legalistic and I have tried to show you that we are instructed to perform acts. But we must do them with love. The love of Christ. I asked what the greatest command was. It is love. Love your God, love your neighbor. Everything else will fall into place. That is taught to me every time I enter my Church building's doors. That is not legalistic
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