Religious debate (split from main board)

#1,401
#1,401
IPorange said:
I have no idea. I just don't understand why people of faith try to act like their beliefs are rational, and rational beliefs are irrational.
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I don't either when it comes to understanding God in this realm.

I accept the fact that he is God, and somethings I will never understand. Im not required to.

Im curious, why does it matter if Im irrational about your rational beliefs?

I understand my end well, just curious as to yours.
 
#1,402
#1,402
Nash270 said:
my logic? You made so many assumptions in your post i dont know where to begin. Let me just ask a question for every sentence. Remember im not claiming to have ANY answers, you are.

Why would a God have a son? If he(as you refer to him as a him) is so concerned about being reconized and having a relationship (is he lonely?) why doesnt he tell us? If he doesnt want us to sin why create sin, or the desire to do so? Why did he create us so we can have everlasting life? just make us all angels to begin with. Does he just want a laugh out of us first?

I know most responses will just refer the bible. So just ignore if your response reverts back to circular logic.
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Because your questions are not circular in any way :crazy:
 
#1,404
#1,404
ridethelightening said:
I don't think you can say Jesus AND baptism saves. Jesus death on the cross gave us all a chance at salvation. We obtain that salvation by taking on a newness of life through baptism. It is an act of our belief that Christ died on the cross for the remission of our sins.

Jesus saved us all but we have to believe and we have to act. We must be washed in the blood
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I agree with the first statement. Just not with the one of those two items that you believe saves us.
The "we must act" is pure legalism.
 
#1,405
#1,405
ridethelightening said:
To begin with, this is by no means what you originally said. Secondly, a lot of the things you said in this post I struggle with myself. Or have struggled with.
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well thank you for a honest post, I really bring nothing to the table other than questioning others, as I haven't answered things for myself and am no where in a position to try and answer others.

T-TownVol said:
Because your questions are not circular in any way :crazy:
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how can a question be illogical? Look i can make crazy face too :crazy:
 
#1,412
#1,412
T-TownVol said:
I agree with the first statement. Just not with the one of those two items that you believe saves us.
The "we must act" is pure legalism.
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Your definition and my definition of legalism are not the same. I think of the writers of the law who were too wrapped up in the act more than the love and significance. If you feel that is the Church of Christ way, I'm apologize. I have been taught from day one that the heart and intention is greater than the act itself.

Performing acts is not legalism. Performing acts without the love and intention they are intended for is legalism.

Thoughts?
James 2
But someone will say, You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness--and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
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#1,413
#1,413
James is talking about people that are already saved. HUGE difference in "works of faith" or "faith apart from works" and being saved "because of works".
You can not "work" your way to salvation. It is a free gift. Understand this and your walk with Christ gets SO much easier. By the way, James is using Abraham, from the old testament, as an example because they all knew who he was. We do not live under the old law that Abraham did. Context is key here.
I spent 40 years thinking, because of growing up in the chrch of Christ, that it is hard to get to heaven. Turns out, it is easy. Sad thing is, very few will find the way.
(once again, I am not saying that you are not saved, just confused as to how you got there)
 
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#1,414
#1,414
OrangeEmpire said:
It was explained to me that this is an exception to the rule.

Either that or John Wayne baptized him.
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You do know what baptism represents, right? The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The death of our sinful soul, being washed in the blood and resurrecting to a new life. How could a man receive something that hadn't happened, yet? And, is Christ not powerful enough to speak on a person's behalf? Knowing his soul and making that decision? Isn't that kinda his job? Out of all the times we are told to repent and be baptized, this is your hangup to simply not do it?

Did not John the Baptist say,"I baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit"? Did not John the Baptist baptize Christ? Did it not make his Heavenly Father proud? Why would you not want to be baptized?
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#1,415
#1,415
T-TownVol said:
James is talking about people that are already saved. HUGE difference in "works of faith" or "faith apart from works" and being saved "because of works".
You can not "work" your way to salvation. It is a free gift. Understand this and your walk with Christ gets SO much easier. By the way, James is using Abraham, from the old testament, as an example because they all knew who he was. We do not live under the old law that Abraham did. Context is key here.
I spent 40 years thinking, because of growing up in the chrch of Christ, that it is hard to get to heaven. Turns out, it is easy. Sad thing is, very few will find the way.
(once again, I am not saying that you are not saved, just confused as to how you got there)
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I'm sorry, but the path to Heaven is not an easy one. Matthew 7: 14, "For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life and those who find it are few."

And I simply don't understand how you can separate works and faith the way that you have. If I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and through him I will find everlasting life, I am going to be baptized in him as he has instructed me to do.

And the verse can't be any simpler. James 2: 24, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
 
#1,416
#1,416
ridethelightening said:
I'm sorry, but the path to Heaven is not an easy one. Matthew 7: 14, "For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life and those who find it are few."

And I simply don't understand how you can separate works and faith the way that you have. If I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and through him I will find everlasting life, I am going to be baptized in him as he has instructed me to do.

And the verse can't be any simpler. James 2: 24, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
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"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph. 2:8,9).
 
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#1,417
#1,417
BeecherVol said:
I don't either when it comes to understanding God in this realm.

I accept the fact that he is God, and somethings I will never understand. Im not required to.

Im curious, why does it matter if Im irrational about your rational beliefs?

I understand my end well, just curious as to yours.
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I just don't know how people can intellectually justify criticizing someone for not having all the answers in a atheistic world view, when a theistic world view is by definition just filling in any blanks with "God" and "because he's God."
 
#1,418
#1,418
oklavol said:
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph. 2:8,9).
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Does this passage say we are saved by faith alone? I read it as it takes both, especially if I apply what is said in James. I read this passage as I can't be saved by works alone, so that I can boast about all the good works that I am doing. Kind of pertinent to what was going on during this time with the Pharisees. If I read all of the Bible and apply all of it's teachings, then I will know that I can't be saved by faith alone and works alone. It takes both, and it is by the Grace of God that I receive salvation.
 
#1,419
#1,419
ridethelightening said:
I'm sorry, but the path to Heaven is not an easy one. Matthew 7: 14, "For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life and those who find it are few."

And I simply don't understand how you can separate works and faith the way that you have. If I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and through him I will find everlasting life, I am going to be baptized in him as he has instructed me to do.
And the verse can't be any simpler. James 2: 24, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
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In this we are in 100% agreement. Matter of fact, believers are commanded to be baptised.

So, you have earned your salvation?
 
#1,420
#1,420
ridethelightening said:
Does this passage say we are saved by faith alone? I read it as it takes both, especially if I apply what is said in James. I read this passage as I can't be saved by works alone, so that I can boast about all the good works that I am doing. Kind of pertinent to what was going on during this time with the Pharisees. If I read all of the Bible and apply all of it's teachings, then I will know that I can't be saved by faith alone and works alone. It takes both, and it is by the Grace of God that I receive salvation.
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Just curious... but how much "works" is enough to be saved? Faith seems very well defined in the Bible (i.e. belief that Jesus Christ died for our sins and is our Lord and Savior). But I can't find the same level of objectivity relative to works.
 
#1,421
#1,421
T-TownVol said:
In this we are in 100% agreement. Matter of fact, believers are commanded to be baptised.

So, you have earned your salvation?
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I have been baptized. There is nothing I can do to earn my salvation. Hopefully, I will obtain it through the grace of God
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#1,422
#1,422
ridethelightening said:
I have been baptized. There is nothing I can do to earn my salvation. Hopefully, I will obtain it through the grace of God
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If you have confessed that Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins. That you are a sinner and that Jesus paid the price for those sins........YOU ARE SAVED!!!!!
Nothing else NEED be done.....don't confuse that with having a DESIRE to do good works to PLEASE God.

Make no mistake......your salvation is "obtained"! The only way that you can lose it now is if you denounce God and reject him totally.

You have just given the reason that I got my family out of the c of C. The "even though you are saved, you still have to earn it/work for it everyday" theology is just wrong. Be secure in your salvation and "store up treasures".
 
#1,423
#1,423
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Just curious... but how much "works" is enough to be saved? Faith seems very well defined in the Bible (i.e. belief that Jesus Christ died for our sins and is our Lord and Savior). But I can't find the same level of objectivity relative to works.
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Everyone is different. Christ is the head and we are the body. Each part of the body serves a different function. Do what you are capable of and with the love of Christ.
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#1,424
#1,424
T-TownVol said:
If you have confessed that Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins. That you are a sinner and that Jesus paid the price for those sins........YOU ARE SAVED!!!!!
Nothing else NEED be done.....don't confuse that with having a DESIRE to do good works to PLEASE God.

Make no mistake......your salvation is "obtained"! The only way that you can lose it now is if you denounce God and reject him totally.

You have just given the reason that I got my family out of the c of C. The "even though you are saved, you still have to earn it/work for it everyday" theology is just wrong. Be secure in your salvation and "store up treasures".
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If I believe in Christ and his love for me, I will show my appreciation on more than one occasion. I will walk with Him daily.

What is the greatest commandment?
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#1,425
#1,425
ridethelightening said:
If I believe in Christ and his love for me, I will show my appreciation on more than one occasion. I will walk with Him daily.
What is the greatest commandment?
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That is exactly what I have been saying. The love of Christ and the Church is what motivates us to do good works and to do our best to live a life that mirrors him. These works are not what saves us, they are what are commanded of the believer AFTER salvation.
Living a perfect life is not possible, but it in no way puts my salvation in danger.
Seriously, do you not see that?
 
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