Religious debate (split from main board)

#1,501
#1,501
KB5252 said:
I realize my beliefs are different from many Christians, probably at odds with many on this very forum. I see science as explaining the processes by which God creates and changes the world we live in. Why is this such a strange concept unworthy of merit for you? I do not ask this to be obnoxious or argumentative, just want to understand the reasoning.
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You are only shades away from agnosticism and atheism, you know.

It's not strange by any means. It's a position that's been around for the last five hundred years or more. At a certain point, you have to wonder why there even needs to be a "God" to explain so many of the processes you mention. You have to wonder why is "God" assumed? The answer is because it's a "catch-all" for a sense of order and place in the universe. "God" as a concept is an unconscious evolved coping mechanism, imo. It's a paternal power that will be there always, which is something that would be quite comforting to a social mammal who used to spend more than a third of it's natural life dependent on parents. It's a quick answer and comfort to anything that can't be explained or comprehended. And it's completely baseless in reality. Some point to the Bible that has "stood the test of time," but even that is highly relative. Humans have been kicking around this sphere for a lot longer than that book. They've had religion for at least tens of thousands of years before that book, too. Monotheism is only a recent development. The idea of there only being "one god" was radical and terrifying to many early cultures, much like the idea of no god is now.
 
#1,502
#1,502
T-TownVol said:
Feel better?
It is amazing that you need to keep justifing your stance when you are dealing with such an immature dumb ass.
My reasons for my beliefs are just as reasoned as yours. I am not the one trying to "shoot holes" in a belief that is in the major majority in this world. Nothing you have said proves squat as to there not being a God.
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I rest my case.

You don't contribute a thing here, you just post eternity nonsense (like some of us actually care about your myths) and try to get reactions out of people. And as soon as somebody addresses your silliness you post a response like this.

...and let me let you in on a little secret here that most who can comprehend an intelligent discussion have already figured out, I'm not trying to prove there isn't a God, I'm just giving the reasons why I don't think there is, and why I don't agree with the reasons I have heard from others so far. I understand nuance isn't your strong suit, but there is a difference, believe it or not.
 
#1,503
#1,503
rjd970 said:
I rest my case.

You don't contribute a thing here, you just post eternity nonsense (like some of us actually care about your myths) and try to get reactions out of people. And as soon as somebody addresses your silliness you post a response like this.

...and let me let you in on a little secret here that most who can comprehend an intelligent discussion have already figured out, I'm not trying to prove there isn't a God, I'm just giving the reasons why I don't think there is, and why I don't agree with the reasons I have heard from others so far. I understand nuance isn't your strong suit, but there is a difference, believe it or not.
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Thank you so much for your insight on nuance. You are clearly the more intellectual person here.
I guess using your own words in a response is off limits huh? Oh....wait....that is your mo.
 
#1,504
#1,504
T-TownVol said:
Correct....difference being that the believer does not have to have all the answers.
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I think a human understanding all is a futile endeavor, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand as much as we can though. After all if you believe like I do the Bible when read should stir you to ask questions and contemplate.
 
#1,506
#1,506
KB5252 said:
I think a human understanding all is a futile endeavor, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand as much as we can though. After all if you believe like I do the Bible when read should stir you to ask questions and contemplate.
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We are given free will and learning all we can is a huge part of that, I agree. I believe that humans and animals have evolved/adapted over time and science is our means to help explain it. God set this world in motion and since JC came and went, he has let man be in charge of his own destiny.
 
#1,508
#1,508
IPorange said:
You are only shades away from agnosticism and atheism, you know.

It's not strange by any means. It's a position that's been around for the last five hundred years or more. At a certain point, you have to wonder why there even needs to be a "God" to explain so many of the processes you mention. You have to wonder why is "God" assumed? The answer is because it's a "catch-all" for a sense of order and place in the universe. "God" as a concept is an unconscious evolved coping mechanism, imo. It's a paternal power that will be there always, which is something that would be quite comforting to a social mammal who used to spend more than a third of it's natural life dependent on parents. It's a quick answer and comfort to anything that can't be explained or comprehended. And it's completely baseless in reality. Some point to the Bible that has "stood the test of time," but even that is highly relative. Humans have been kicking around this sphere for a lot longer than that book. They've had religion for at least tens of thousands of years before that book, too. Monotheism is only a recent development. The idea of there only being "one god" was radical and terrifying to many early cultures, much like the idea of no god is now.
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Religion may very well be a coping mechanism. I don't see my belief as a religion so much as a way to understand the creator. I do believe there is a supernatural being, I call him God, I believe in Christ. I am not close to being an atheist my beliefs are simply my own, I don't need a congregation to validate my beliefs nor do i feel the need to have a preacher explain to me on what terms my relationship with God should take place.

I'm sure you know many of the stories from the Bible are from this long ago period of time of which you alluded to earlier. This is why so many stories of great floods and such are found throughout so many different cultures from so many distant regions of earth. There is a commonality among many of them.
 
#1,509
#1,509
T-TownVol said:
We are given free will and learning all we can is a huge part of that, I agree. I believe that humans and animals have evolved/adapted over time and science is our means to help explain it. God set this world in motion and since JC came and went, he has let man be in charge of his own destiny.
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That doesn't seem to be going well...


But that's interesting that you put it this way. Theology aside, the only difference between what your bottom line is and what I believe is that I believe man has always been in charge of his own destiny.
 
#1,510
#1,510
KB5252 said:
Religion may very well be a coping mechanism. I don't see my belief as a religion so much as a way to understand the creator. I do believe there is a supernatural being, I call him God, I believe in Christ. I am not close to being an atheist my beliefs are simply my own, I don't need a congregation to validate my beliefs nor do i feel the need to have a preacher explain to me on what terms my relationship with God should take place.

I'm sure you know many of the stories from the Bible are from this long ago period of time of which you alluded to earlier. This is why so many stories of great floods and such are found throughout so many different cultures from so many distant regions of earth. There is a commonality among many of them.
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You mean that they did not have 24 hour news covering the know world at that time?
 
#1,511
#1,511
KB5252 said:
Religion may very well be a coping mechanism. I don't see my belief as a religion so much as a way to understand the creator. I do believe there is a supernatural being, I call him God, I believe in Christ. I am not close to being an atheist my beliefs are simply my own, I don't need a congregation to validate my beliefs nor do i feel the need to have a preacher explain to me on what terms my relationship with God should take place.

I'm sure you know many of the stories from the Bible are from this long ago period of time of which you alluded to earlier. This is why so many stories of great floods and such are found throughout so many different cultures from so many distant regions of earth. There is a commonality among many of them.
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I don't see that cultural commonality of stories as a strength of the Bible's legitimacy as being The Word of God, and not just a cultural artifact. There were also lots of different religion's that had their main god having a human son on Earth, that was sent to be a savior or king.
 
#1,512
#1,512
IPorange said:
That doesn't seem to be going well...


But that's interesting that you put it this way. Theology aside, the only difference between what your bottom line is and what I believe is that I believe man has always been in charge of his own destiny.
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I have always known that we believe basically the same thing. I just believe that God is the one to give the credit to.

You are correct...it is NOT going well. It will end badly for many people one day.
 
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#1,514
#1,514
T-TownVol said:
You mean that they did not have 24 hour news covering the know world at that time?
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No, but I do believe cultures from all over the world met, mingled and traded with each other much earlier than what is commonly accepted today. Central and South Americans traded with other indigenous cultures as far north as the great lakes in North America. Perhaps they did not trade with them directly but it is hard to imagine that such great maritime nations that existed around the gulf of Mexico would merely unload their wares in present day Florida without ever wondering what lay beyond. It goes against what we know about human nature in it's entirety.

In short I believe that most of the cultures across the world were at least vaguely familiar with each other and the scribes and royalty had a decent understanding of their various histories.
 
#1,515
#1,515
IPorange said:
This is a tad off topic, but why does God get credit, but never gets blame?
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I think I understand where you are going with this, all I can say is one of my trademark sayings is "Be careful what you lay at the feet of God".
 
#1,516
#1,516
IPorange said:
This is a tad off topic, but why does God get credit, but never gets blame?
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To use your word....I do "blame" God for every thing that happens in this world. He allows things or he can stop things from happening.
Any specific events that you are thinking about?
 
#1,517
#1,517
IPorange said:
I just don't know how people can intellectually justify criticizing someone for not having all the answers in a atheistic world view, when a theistic world view is by definition just filling in any blanks with "God" and "because he's God."
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That door swings both ways.

I have stated that I can't, and never will be able to answer every question about God. IMO, and by statements made in this thread science has not answered all questions either. And I think you agree with that, or at least it sounds like you do.
 
#1,518
#1,518
Originally Posted by IPorange
I just don't know how people can intellectually justify criticizing someone for not having all the answers in a atheistic world view, when a theistic world view is by definition just filling in any blanks with "God" and "because he's God."


IP, if we knew everything possible about God, we probably wouldn't heed Him. Its the things I don't know that makes me Love Him even more.

Why is it always said that Christians use God as a crutch? If you knew what it means to really be a Christian you would see that He's not a crutch. A crutch is something you lean on, God is something that carries you completely.
 
#1,519
#1,519
BeecherVol said:
That door swings both ways.

I have stated that I can't, and never will be able to answer every question about God. IMO, and by statements made in this thread science has not answered all questions either. And I think you agree with that, or at least it sounds like you do.
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I'm just not so sure that these two are similar enough cases to be relavant. Science, as a body of knowledge, is constantly ... evolving. We can easily look at what was deemed impossible, unknowable, or simply mysterious from decades to centuries ago, and see how it was made posslble, knowable, and comprehensible.

Science deals with matters of fact - and, as Hume says, the opposite of every matter of fact is strictly speaking possible. More importantly, the way we deal with and comprehend matters of fact about the material world is sequential and builds upon prior knowledge and innovative instruments. The impossible daily becomes the accomplished. This isn't to say that every scientific question will be answered, but that an unanswered question doesn't mean an unanswerable question, or a question that won't soon be answered.

Religion deals with logical entities. It assigns a definition - a meaning - to theoretical entities. It attempts to know the unknowable through emotional or purely rationalistic means (these two can also be combined. I am using rationalist in comparison to empiricist, not emotionalist). Theology has also been very slow to progess. It suffers the same fate as all of metaphysics in philosophy - when you aren't dealing with material entities, with testable claims, you have a hard time building or progressing.

Scientists today aren't smarter than scientists of a thousand years ago. In the same light, theologians today aren't smarter than theologians of two thousand years ago. However, because of the nature of their study, scientists today can answer questions that baffled their predecessors, and can do so without imagining any sort of intellectual superiority. Theologians, however, are limited by their mystical encounters and intellectual capacities. Because of this, we can't really expect them to reach new understanding in relavant areas without undergoing some sort of intellectual change/progrssion.

So, in short, what I am trying to say is that while science hasn't answered everything, that isn't a problem for science. It is what science thrives on. It answers unanswered questions. When religion hasn't answered something - something it has dealt with for 2 thousand years unchecked - it is more likely because the problem isn't solvable by us...at least not as we currently exist.
 
#1,521
#1,521
IPorange said:
I don't see that cultural commonality of stories as a strength of the Bible's legitimacy as being The Word of God, and not just a cultural artifact. There were also lots of different religion's that had their main god having a human son on Earth, that was sent to be a savior or king.
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No, I didn't mean for that to be taken as some sort of proof of the Bible as fact, only that some stories from the Bible are similar to others because they were handed down from older civilizations. I believe this to be true and this why I view the Bible and believe the way I do. There are some very interesting little tidbits in there. You can find references to many other religious beliefs from many cultures in the Bible if you know what to look for.

The people that became the nation of Israel were a mix of all different kinds of people from varying backgrounds and even cultures. Of course their histories would contain references to many different types of beliefs.
 
#1,522
#1,522
BeecherVol said:
Did you read what we were discussing?
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Sorry - yeah, I did read what you put, and decided to post something only implicitly related. First, there is a decent connection between atheism and a stronger belief in the powers/legitimacy of science and empiricism. It seemed reasonable to connect the two. Second, many of the comments on the thread have been about the limits of science, and have often connected the fallibility of science and empiricism with the atheistic position.

If it isn't related enough, my apologies.
 
#1,523
#1,523
Why all the hate towards legalism? The definition is "strict adherence to the law."

Matt 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
If I want God to say to me, "well done thy good and faithful servant", shouldn't I strictly adhere to His law?
 
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