Religious debate (split from main board)

#1,728
#1,728
salutethehill said:
What if I showed you a passage that says, specifically, that baptism washes away our sins? Would you then acknowledge that your above phrase is incorrect?
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Please read Max Lucado, a Church of Christ preacher, "The Gift for All People".
It is basic and straight to the point about salvation and a loving relationship with our Lord and savior.
 
#1,730
#1,730
OrangeEmpire said:
No, cause you are killing the context.

:)

For every one you show me out of context I will show 10 and refer to passages and not keywords.
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I knew you were gonna say that, but I'll show you anyway:

Saul is on the road to Damascus. He has been blinded and spoken to by Jesus.

Acts 22
10 So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’ 11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.
12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Ananias says that, even though Saul believed, he was STILL in his sins. How can you be saved, yet still be in your sins? You can say I'm taking this out of context if you want, but that doesn't make it true. SAUL BELIEVED AND WAS STILL IN HIS SINS.
 
#1,731
#1,731
T-TownVol said:
Please read Max Lucado, a Church of Christ preacher, "The Gift for All People".
It is basic and straight to the point about salvation and a loving relationship with our Lord and savior.
Click to expand...

If Max Lucado is teaching something contrary to what the Bible teaches, why would I want to read his work? The name of Max Lucado's church is Oak Hills Church, by the way (not Church of Christ). It's been that way for 7 years.
 
#1,732
#1,732
First, you need to understand that God works covenantally. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties. The New Testament and Old Testaments are New and Old Covenants. The word "testament" comes from the Latin testamentum which means covenant. So, the Bible is a covenant document. If you don't understand covenant you cannot understand, in totality, the issue of baptism because baptism is a covenant sign.

If you don't think that God works covenantally then look at Heb 13:20 which says, "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep".

Circumcision was the initiatory rite into the Abrahamic covenant; it did not save. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties and that is exactly what the Abrahamic covenant was. God said to Abraham, "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you" Genesis 17:7. God later instructed Abraham to circumcise not only every adult male, but also 8 day old male infants as a sign of the covenant Gen. 17:9-13. If the children were not circumcised, they were not considered to be under the promissory Abrahamic covenant.

In the New Testament, circumcision is mentioned many times. But with respect to this topic it is specifically mentioned in Col. 2:11-12: "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead". In these verses, baptism and circumcision are related. Baptism replaces the Old Testament circumcision because 1.) there was a New Covenant in the communion supper Luke 22:20, and 2.) in circumcision there was the shedding of blood but in baptism no blood is shed. This is because the blood of Christ has been shed.

If you understand that baptism is a covenant sign, then you can see that it is a representation of the reality of Christ circumcising our hearts Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11-12. It is our outward proclamation of the inward spiritual blessing of regeneration. It comes after faith which is a gift of God Rom. 12:3 and the work of God John 6:28.
Third, the Bible says that it is the gospel that saves. "By this gospel you are saved..." 1 Cor. 15:2. Also, Rom. 1:16 says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."

Hey, you guys keep this up!

I am gone till Monday............

Keep the responses coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We need to get TRUT in here to throw in a catholic view...... then we would really get going!

:)
 
#1,736
#1,736
salutethehill said:
If Max Lucado is teaching something contrary to what the Bible teaches, why would I want to read his work? The name of Max Lucado's church is Oak Hills Church, by the way (not Church of Christ). It's been that way for 7 years.
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That is just it, he is teaching EXACTLY what the Bible tells us. They changed the name to get away from the teachings of the c of C. You did not google back far enough. He was disowned by your denomination because he did not teach legalism. just like professors at Lipscomb have been fired for toeing the "company line" and DARING to play pre-recorded music before worship. OH the horror!!!!
Please.....do not go there.

Oh....by the way...many of the churches of Christ in Nashville are dropping the c of C label too. Tells ya something about the theology huh?
 
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#1,738
#1,738
BeecherVol said:
There was a lady in my church a few years ago that went forward on a Sunday morining, and professed in front of the entire church that she had given her life to christ. She died in a car wreck 3 days later, and was to be baptized the following Sunday.

Your telling me that Christ will turn her away?
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Just curious, why was she not baptized when she confessed?

As I've said already, no one on this earth makes the decision of who enters heaven. Only God knows our hearts. I am, however, in control of what I choose and the actions I take. Jesus said to believe and be baptized so that I can be saved. Good enough for me.
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#1,739
#1,739
T-TownVol said:
Please read Max Lucado, a Church of Christ preacher, "The Gift for All People".
It is basic and straight to the point about salvation and a loving relationship with our Lord and savior.
Click to expand...

Why do Max Lucado's words hold more precedence than Jesus's?
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#1,740
#1,740
ridethelightening said:
Just curious, why was she not baptized when she confessed?

As I've said already, no one on this earth makes the decision of who enters heaven. Only God knows our hearts. I am, however, in control of what I choose and the actions I take. Jesus said to believe and be baptized so that I can be saved. Good enough for me.
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Typically at our church, you don't get baptized the same day. They normally set it up the next week where the family and friends of those saved can be in attendance if they are not there that day. And in some cases they will have non believing friends and family come to see it. If I remember correctly, this particular lady wanted her mother in attendance, and she was not there the Sunday that she was saved.
 
#1,741
#1,741
BeecherVol said:
Typically at our church, you don't get baptized the same day. They normally set it up the next week where the family and friends of those saved can be in attendance if they are not there that day. And in some cases they will have non believing friends and family come to see it. If I remember correctly, this particular lady wanted her mother in attendance, and she was not there the Sunday that she was saved.
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I hope with all my heart she is enjoying heaven.
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#1,742
#1,742
ridethelightening said:
Just curious, why was she not baptized when she confessed?

As I've said already, no one on this earth makes the decision of who enters heaven. Only God knows our hearts. I am, however, in control of what I choose and the actions I take. Jesus said to believe and be baptized so that I can be saved. Good enough for me.Posted via VolNation Mobile
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I agree 100%. We practice baptism, and I was baptized 3 weeks after I accpeted Christ.

I just have a problem with the particular situation I spoke of. Im not sure Christ would cast her away, for the lady wanting her mother to see her baptized. He knew she was going to be. As you stated, he is the only one that can read our hearts. In that case, that is all that mattered to me, and her.
 
#1,744
#1,744
salutethehill said:
What if I showed you a passage that says, specifically, that baptism washes away our sins? Would you then acknowledge that your above phrase is incorrect?
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If baptism washes away our sins, then why do they come back? Or, are you saying that you can remain sinless after you have been baptized? If you can't and you sin again, wouldn't you then have to be baptized again to "wash them away"?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, and have a lot of respect for the devotion you and Lightning possess, but I honestly fail to grasp how this plays out...
 
#1,746
#1,746
IBlvNTmWrk said:
If baptism washes away our sins, then why do they come back? Or, are you saying that you can remain sinless after you have been baptized? If you can't and you sin again, wouldn't you then have to be baptized again to "wash them away"?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, and have a lot of respect for the devotion you and Lightning possess, but I honestly fail to grasp how this plays out...
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The Lord hates sin. Will not be in its presence. Christ died on the cross as a blood offering for our sins. Everyone of us. We are baptized into Christ, into his body. We are washing away the sins of this life. We will continue to sin, but if we ask for forgiveness, the blood will cleanse us
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#1,747
#1,747
ridethelightening said:
The Lord hates sin (but loves us... hate the sin, but love the sinner). Will not be in its presence (not sure I completely understand. There are certainly times I feel I am in the presence of the Lord, and I know I'm a sinner). Christ died on the cross as a blood offering for our sins. (yes)Everyone of us.(yes) We are baptized into Christ, into his body.(okay) We are washing away the sins of this life. We will continue to sin, but if we ask for forgiveness, the blood will cleanse us
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I believe that when Christ died, that he died for our sins. The Bible doesn't say that he died for our past sins, current sins, future sins... but that he died for our sins. To me this was the single event that provided the path to salvation... for everyone. A second necessary step is that we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior and publicly profess this faith. This most often occurs as part of baptism, but I"m not convinced it has to (and yes, I am baptized). I also agree that we should ask forgiveness for our sins. Where we differ, perhaps, is the approach to "not sinning". You believe, if I understand correctly, that we should abide by the law because God commands it. I believe, because of the magnificent sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the love and grace He has provided, we should be compelled to live without sin... even though we all know this is not possible in the secular world.

A correlation I often make is my own relationship with my kids. As a father, I could demand they do as I say and expect them to do so as I am their authoritative figure and I know better than they do. However, I don't think this builds a healthy, loving relationship and as soon as the kids are old enough to leave the nest they are quick to get out of town. On the other hand, if our relationship is built on the foundation of (unconditional) love first, and the recognition that I have more wisdom than they do, they will hopefully choose to take my advice... and even when they don't and they make mistakes (as I know my children are not perfect), they will always know that I still love them and they will always be part of the family.
 
#1,748
#1,748
IBlvNTmWrk said:
I believe that when Christ died, that he died for our sins. The Bible doesn't say that he died for our past sins, current sins, future sins... but that he died for our sins. To me this was the single event that provided the path to salvation... for everyone. A second necessary step is that we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior and publicly profess this faith. This most often occurs as part of baptism, but I"m not convinced it has to (and yes, I am baptized). I also agree that we should ask forgiveness for our sins. Where we differ, perhaps, is the approach to "not sinning". You believe, if I understand correctly, that we should abide by the law because God commands it. I believe, because of the magnificent sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the love and grace He has provided, we should be compelled to live without sin... even though we all know this is not possible in the secular world.

A correlation I often make is my own relationship with my kids. As a father, I could demand they do as I say and expect them to do so as I am their authoritative figure and I know better than they do. However, I don't think this builds a healthy, loving relationship and as soon as the kids are old enough to leave the nest they are quick to get out of town. On the other hand, if our relationship is built on the foundation of (unconditional) love first, and the recognition that I have more wisdom than they do, they will hopefully choose to take my advice... and even when they don't and they make mistakes (as I know my children are not perfect), they will always know that I still love them and they will always be part of the family.
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Great post....it is truely a blessing when we realize that being a Christian is not a burden. At that point, our relationship with Christ becomes personal and grows in our heart.
 
#1,749
#1,749
T-TownVol said:
Great post....it is truely a blessing when we realize that being a Christian is not a burden. At that point, our relationship with Christ becomes personal and grows in our heart.
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"Take up your cross and follow Me"

For how long, how far? Is this just a call to believe, or a call to believe and act?

I would love for you to tell me what about the eunich story I am not capable to understand. If you have information that can save me, please do not hold that information back
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