Religious Survey

[smoke_em06]

That is a very small way of looking at life. There are many people that walk the earth helping more people than some churches ever do and they will be denied?

If they are not born again, then yes they will be.

 

[utvolpj]

So the members of the Westboro Baptist Church will all get in but someone who's only mission is the betterment of mankind would be denied because he doesn't meet your definition?

 

[smoke_em06]

So the members of the Westboro Baptist Church will all get in but someone who's only mission is the betterment of mankind would be denied because he doesn't meet your definition?

The only way to enter the Kingdom of God is to accept the sacrifice that God made for us on the cross. I am a servant and a steward for Christ. But by no means could I get to Heaven on my own. God knows that and that is why he laid down his life for you and me. I don't care if your baptist or Catholic. If you don't give your life to Christ and accept him into your heart then you will be denied. It tears me up to see people that think they can be good all of their life and God will let them into heaven. God has made it so easy, but people make it so hard. You simply can't work your way to heaven.

 

[smoke_em06]

And by the way, its not my definition it is God's.

 

[utvolpj]

Well then we disagree. I think God would rather see someone honor him with their actions than with their words. Many can claim to be "born again" but never show it. I find it hard to believe that there has never been a Jew, Muslim, Hindu etc. that has ever warranted His love. It's hard to believe that you will believe that he created this earth but only deemed few worthy. You do realize that there are many on this earth that are never exposed to the Bible. But I guess he just made them for nothing.

 

[smoke_em06]

Well then we disagree. I think God would rather see someone honor him with their actions than with their words. Many can claim to be "born again" but never show it. I find it hard to believe that there has never been a Jew, Muslim, Hindu etc. that has ever warranted His love. It's hard to believe that you will believe that he created this earth but only deemed few worthy. You do realize that there are many on this earth that are never exposed to the Bible. But I guess he just made them for nothing.

I definitely realize that there are people who can't hear the gospel, but that is why we have missionaries. I am sure that God speaks to those people in ways that we will never understand. There are plenty of people who claim to follow Jesus, but they have never truly given their life for Christ. The Bible says that the road that leads to him is straight and narrow and few find it. He also says that great and wide is the road that leads to destruction and many find this one. Most everyone believes there is a God, but works can't get you there. I don't care who you are. No one is sinles.

 

[OrangeSquare]

Ok, on the subject of missionaries.

This one bothers me, and I'm Christian.

Why do we travel to the far reaches of the earth to "help those in need" when there are PLEANTY of people here in East Tennessee that could use our food, water, and the Word of God?

Why send our money to the guy on tv building wells in Africa, instead of helping the family in the mountains with their grocery bill?

 

[therealUT]

I definitely realize that there are people who can't hear the gospel, but that is why we have missionaries. I am sure that God speaks to those people in ways that we will never understand. There are plenty of people who claim to follow Jesus, but they have never truly given their life for Christ. The Bible says that the road that leads to him is straight and narrow and few find it. He also says that great and wide is the road that leads to destruction and many find this one. Most everyone believes there is a God, but works can't get you there. I don't care who you are. No one is sinles.

Who compiled your Bible again? Oh yes, the Royal Court of King James...about 400 years ago! Maybe you should read the Bible that has all the books and the correct translations, the one that was compiled by Jerome in 390 A.D. And, you should also read it whollistically and allegorically.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

The only way to enter the Kingdom of God is to accept the sacrifice that God made for us on the cross. I am a servant and a steward for Christ. But by no means could I get to Heaven on my own. God knows that and that is why he laid down his life for you and me. I don't care if your baptist or Catholic. If you don't give your life to Christ and accept him into your heart then you will be denied. It tears me up to see people that think they can be good all of their life and God will let them into heaven. God has made it so easy, but people make it so hard. You simply can't work your way to heaven.

Where did this notion that a person can "accept Christ" come from? Nobody can "accept Christ". He either accepts you or he dosen't. God made the choice before He ever created anything when He held His cosmic lottery or whatever He did. Whoever was fortunate enough to be chosen was born predestined to heaven. The rest of us who weren't so fortunate were born predestined to hell. That's just the way it is.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 NKJV)

For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharoah, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show my power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth ." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Romans 9:15-24 NKJV)

 

[therealUT]

The Holy Spirit can say the same thing in two different ways, so long as the same meaning, in different words, is clear to anyone who reads with understanding
--St. Augustine, City of God

Most people fail to read the Bible with understanding, and therefore take much of it out of context and away from its intended meaning. (Insert the names of Bravevol and Smoke Em here.)

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 NKJV)

These verses outline the Christian vocation as it was designed by God: to be conformed to the image of his Son, who is to be the firstborn among many brotherss. God's redemptive action on behalf of the believers has been in process before the beginning of the world. Those whom God chooses are those he foreknew or elected. Those who are called are predestined or predetermined. These expressions do not mean that God is arbitrary. Rather, Paul uses them to emphasize the thought and care that God has taken for the Christian's salvation.

For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharoah, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show my power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth ." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Romans 9:15-24 NKJV)

The principal of divine election does not invite Christians to theoretical inquiry concerning the nonelected, nor does this principle mean that God is unfair in his dealings with humanity. The instruction concerning divine election is a part of the gospel and reveals that the gift of faith is the enactment of God's mercy. God raised up Moses to display that mercy, and Pharoah to display divine severity in punishing those who obstinately oppose their Creator. The basic biblical principal is: those who will not see or hear shall not see or hear. On the other hand, the same God who thus makes stubborn or hardens the heart can reconstruct it through the work of the Holy Spirit. Paul shows that God is far less arbitrary than appearances suggest, for God endures with much patience a person like the Pharoah of the Exodus.

He who would place the reason of predestination either in man alone or in God alone would inevitably be led into heretical conclusions about eternal election.

--New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia

 

[smoke_em06]

Where did this notion that a person can "accept Christ" come from? Nobody can "accept Christ". He either accepts you or he dosen't. God made the choice before He ever created anything when He held His cosmic lottery or whatever He did. Whoever was fortunate enough to be chosen was born predestined to heaven. The rest of us who weren't so fortunate were born predestined to hell. That's just the way it is.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 NKJV)

For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharoah, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show my power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth ." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Romans 9:15-24 NKJV)

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

[therealUT]

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

First, the faith through works notion still applies, even to your beloved John 3:16 scripture reading (which by the way is the most overused and cliched of all scripture passages.)

Next, where in the Bible does it say that those who do not believe in Jesus are destined to hell?

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Next, where in the Bible does it say that those who do not believe in Jesus are destined to hell?

Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[OrangeSquare]

Nobody gonna take on my question?

 

[smoke_em06]

Nobody gonna take on my question?

Thats a tough one. I definitely think that we can get to caught up in the situation in other places and overlook the one right in front of us. I know that in the county I live, approx. 81% of the population is not in church on sunday morning. That was a very startling discovery for me. Since then, my church and other sister baptist churches have really focused on reaching out to our fellow citizens with the word of God. It is easily taken for granted.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Excellent! Someone to play scripture ping pong with :yahoo:

Where exactly does the whosoever in Jn 3:16 come from?

No man can come to me except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

These verses outline the Christian vocation as it was designed by God: to be conformed to the image of his Son, who is to be the firstborn among many brotherss. God's redemptive action on behalf of the believers has been in process before the beginning of the world. Those whom God chooses are those he foreknew or elected. Those who are called are predestined or predetermined. These expressions do not mean that God is arbitrary. Rather, Paul uses them to emphasize the thought and care that God has taken for the Christian's salvation.

But how can it logically be anything other than arbirtary? If God choose some to election then that, by default, means that everyone who was not called was predestined to damnation. Unless of course, the bible is not to be taken literally. But then, Romans 8, 9, and 10 make no sense whatsoever.

The principal of divine election does not invite Christians to theoretical inquiry concerning the nonelected, nor does this principle mean that God is unfair in his dealings with humanity..

It may not invite Christians to theoretical inquiry, although many do anyway. It does invite a non christian like myself, especially since I feel that I'm going to be tortured for eternity simply because some distant ancestor ate an apple he was told not to eat, and I was part of the unlucky group that didn't get his name drawn.

God raised up Moses to display that mercy, and Pharoah to display divine severity in punishing those who obstinately oppose their Creator. The basic biblical principal is: those who will not see or hear shall not see or hear. On the other hand, the same God who thus makes stubborn or hardens the heart can reconstruct it through the work of the Holy Spirit. Paul shows that God is far less arbitrary than appearances suggest, for God endures with much patience a person like the Pharoah of the Exodus.

If you go back and read the Exodus story, there was no need to endure Pharoah with patience. Pharoah, on several occasions, relented and told Moses that he was releasing the children of Israel, after which God would intervene, harden Pharoah's heart, causing him to change his mind, after which God would come back with a greater show of force; Pharoah would again relent, God would again harden his heart. and the cycle kept repeating until it ended with the death of the firstborn, and the Egyptian army being destroyed in the Red Sea.

Perhaps I'm reading more into it than I should, but these are many of the reasons that I quit going to church. Passages like these really bother me.

 

[Jasongivm6]

So the members of the Westboro Baptist Church will all get in but someone who's only mission is the betterment of mankind would be denied because he doesn't meet your definition?

There is a very simple answer to this question.

People who do not believe in God do not believe there is a heaven or hell.

Yes, there are many non-christians who work hard to make the world better and more peaceful, etc.

 

[therealUT]

Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Still does not say that those who do not believe in Christ are condemned to hell. Book of Life has many different meanings, the most accepted being that of those whose lives are more so 'life giving.'

 

[utvolpj]

There is a very simple answer to this question.

People who do not believe in God do not believe there is a heaven or hell.

Yes, there are many non-christians who work hard to make the world better and more peaceful, etc.

You missed the point, he said that if you do not accept Jesus you will not go to heaven. The religions I mentioned also believe in a higher power and even the same God but, according to smoke, have no chance.

 

[smoke_em06]

Still does not say that those who do not believe in Christ are condemned to hell. Book of Life has many different meanings, the most accepted being that of those whose lives are more so 'life giving.'

When a person is saved, their name is added to the book of life. Anyone not found in the book when their judgement day comes, will be shown no mercy from the Lord. Thus, they are sent to spend an eternity in hell.

 

[therealUT]

But how can it logically be anything other than arbirtary? If God choose some to election then that, by default, means that everyone who was not called was predestined to damnation. Unless of course, the bible is not to be taken literally. But then, Romans 8, 9, and 10 make no sense whatsoever.

It may not invite Christians to theoretical inquiry, although many do anyway. It does invite a non christian like myself, especially since I feel that I'm going to be tortured for eternity simply because some distant ancestor ate an apple he was told not to eat, and I was part of the unlucky group that didn't get his name drawn.

If you go back and read the Exodus story, there was no need to endure Pharoah with patience. Pharoah, on several occasions, relented and told Moses that he was releasing the children of Israel, after which God would intervene, harden Pharoah's heart, causing him to change his mind, after which God would come back with a greater show of force; Pharoah would again relent, God would again harden his heart. and the cycle kept repeating until it ended with the death of the firstborn, and the Egyptian army being destroyed in the Red Sea.

Perhaps I'm reading more into it than I should, but these are many of the reasons that I quit going to church. Passages like these really bother me.

I will respond in order...

It is not arbitrary. The notion of predestination and election as it has been interpreted by Calvin and Luther is false. Basically, God is all knowing. He in no way controls our free will, however, since he is all knowing he knows who is going to live a life that is worthy of heaven even before those people are born.

Second and third, the Bible is not a history book. While many things in the Bible are factual, there are also many things that are allegorical. It needs to be read in whole, not taken verse by verse. It also should be read with understanding. This is where I have serious problems with KJV and Calvin's Bibles. The NAB version, which is translated directly from the Vulgate, is chalk full of footnotes and explanations (at least 1/4 of every page is notes to clear up what one is reading and comprehending, also showing other translations of certain words.) I have yet to see a KJV or Calvin that has such.

 

[therealUT]

When a person is saved, their name is added to the book of life. Anyone not found in the book when their judgement day comes, will be shown no mercy from the Lord. Thus, they are sent to spend an eternity in hell.

Wrong! Which comes to the next question, what seperates you, a radical Christian who has condemned all non believers to hell, from an Islamic terrorist, a radical Muslim who has condemned all infidels to hell? You are skating on very thin ice.

 

[smoke_em06]

Wrong! Which comes to the next question, what seperates you, a radical Christian who has condemned all non believers to hell, from an Islamic terrorist, a radical Muslim who has condemned all infidels to hell? You are skating on very thin ice.

Listen man. I have not and will not condemn anyone to hell. Thats not my job. My job as a born again believer and servant to Christ, is to take the message of Salvation to the lost. You have to be out of your mind to compare a Christian to a radical Muslim. Their religion encourages them to persecute other religions, ecspecially Christianity. The ice that I skate on is the thickest and most firm there is. I am not out to condemn anyone. However, It is important for everyone to know that there will be a judgement day, and when that day comes you and I will both have to stand before the Lord.

 

[therealUT]

Listen man. I have not and will not condemn anyone to hell. Thats not my job. My job as a born again believer and servant to Christ, is to take the message of Salvation to the lost. You have to be out of your mind to compare a Christian to a radical Muslim. Their religion encourages them to persecute other religions, ecspecially Christianity. The ice that I skate on is the thickest and most firm there is. I am not out to condemn anyone. However, It is important for everyone to know that there will be a judgement day, and when that day comes you and I will both have to stand before the Lord.

Stating, with firm conviction, that someone who does not believe in Christ is going to hell is just one step away from then elimating that person. I understand that you cannot see that.

Also, stating that someone who physically abuses their children and/or others is less of a sinner than a homosexual is a very dangerous thought. Basically, you are stating that violence is less morally corruptible than sexual preference and or religious belief. That being said, it is not a large step for you to then rationalize and justify violence in order to rid the world of those who hold differing beliefs than you do.