Richmond is taking down Confederate statues: Is this the end for other Confederate memorials?

#328
#328
MontyPython said:
By this logic, slavery would have been legal in the North.
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Not really. The North didn't have slaves because they didn't need them. But most citizens, including Lincoln himself, still believed them to be inferior. It's also evident in the Emancipation Proclamation as it specifically only frees slaves in the Confederate states, but not in the 4 slave states that remained in the Union.(Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri)
 
#329
#329
Jravol78 said:
i know! Not sure what’s up with that . I will report . It may be some vast conspiracy though 🤪
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The unscientific answer is that the coding on y’all’s posts is jacked up. Likely, one of you edited a post wrong and accidentally changed the HTML code that gets put in a post when you quote somebody. That creates a mess when somebody else quotes the post. I had to edit the code to make it quote you in this post. If you change a character in the format, chaos happens lol.
 
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#330
#330
Weezer said:
Not really. The North didn't have slaves because they didn't need them. But most citizens, including Lincoln himself, still believed them to be inferior. It's also evident in the Emancipation Proclamation as it specifically only frees slaves in the Confederate states, but not in the 4 slave states that remained in the Union.(Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri)
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This is an exercise in wordsmithing "inferior". Lincoln abhorred slavery.

Also, you're peddling a false narrative about the border states.

Wiki:

The Proclamation applied only to slaves in Confederate-held lands; it did not apply to those in the four slave states that were not in rebellion (Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware, and Missouri, which were unnamed), nor to Tennessee (unnamed but occupied by Union troops since 1862) and lower Louisiana (also under occupation), and specifically excluded those counties of Virginia soon to form the state of West Virginia. Also specifically excluded (by name) were some regions already controlled by the Union army. Emancipation in those places would come after separate state actions (as in West Virginia) or the December 1865 ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment, which made slavery and indentured servitude, except for those duly convicted of a crime, illegal everywhere subject to United States jurisdiction
 
#331
#331
Here is an ad trying to sell Monument Ave lots in the early 1900’s. Notice the ad includes a “coming soon” look at the Stonewall Jackson statue along with the note that says, “and don’t you worry. No Black person will ever live here”. The towering statues were put up as an obvious message to Black people that they don’t belong.

It was wrong to put them up in the 1st place. The symbolism of tearing them down will hopefully prove as powerful as the symbol of putting them up
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#332
#332
MontyPython said:
This is an exercise in wordsmithing "inferior". Lincoln abhorred slavery.

Also, you're peddling a false narrative about the border states.

Wiki:

The Proclamation applied only to slaves in Confederate-held lands; it did not apply to those in the four slave states that were not in rebellion (Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware, and Missouri, which were unnamed), nor to Tennessee (unnamed but occupied by Union troops since 1862) and lower Louisiana (also under occupation), and specifically excluded those counties of Virginia soon to form the state of West Virginia. Also specifically excluded (by name) were some regions already controlled by the Union army. Emancipation in those places would come after separate state actions (as in West Virginia) or the December 1865 ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment, which made slavery and indentured servitude, except for those duly convicted of a crime, illegal everywhere subject to United States jurisdiction
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Lincoln abhorred slavery so much that he supported the Corwin Amendment that would have codified slavery and made it illegal for Congress to outlaw it.
 
#333
#333
midnight orange said:
Lincoln abhorred slavery so much that he supported the Corwin Amendment that would have codified slavery and made it illegal for Congress to outlaw it.
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This statement is misleading. Politics was involved, as was Lincoln's evolving opposition to slavery.

In his inaugural address, Lincoln noted Congressional approval of the Corwin amendment and stated that he "had no objection to its being made express and irrevocable." This was not a departure from Lincoln's views on slavery at that time. Lincoln followed the Republican platform from the Chicago convention. He believed that the major problem between the North and South was the inability to reach agreement with respect to the expansion of slavery. Lincoln did not believe that he had the power to eliminate slavery where it already existed. However, Southerners feared that a Republican administration would take direct aim at the institution of slavery. By tacitly supporting Corwin's amendment, Lincoln hoped to convince the South that he would not move to abolish slavery and, at the minimum, keep the border states of Maryland, Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, and North Carolina from seceding.

Lincoln's March 16, 1861 letters to the governors did not endorse or oppose the proposed thirteenth amendment. They merely transmitted a copy of the joint resolution to amend the constitution. This was the first step to ratification by the states. After the firing on Fort Sumter and Lincoln's call for troops, important border states Virginia and Tennessee, among others, seceded. The Civil War began and the purpose of the Corwin amendment was greatly reduced. However, Ohio and Maryland ratified it, and the 1862 Illinois Constitutional Convention endorsed it.

The discovery of Lincoln's letter to the governor of Florida does not alter the historical perspective that Lincoln was willing to compromise to restore the Union before hostilities began. It also underscores Lincoln's evolution toward emancipation. This snapshot of March 1861 shows Lincoln's last attempt to restore the Union while maintaining his party's platform. While personally opposed to slavery, Lincoln believed the Constitution supported it. His support of the Corwin amendment attempted to codify that belief, but the Civil War changed his opinion on presidential power. Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation in 1862, and in 1865, vigorously worked to pass the actual thirteenth amendment, which declared slavery illegal.

Corwin Amendment
 
#338
#338
MontyPython said:
This statement is misleading. Politics was involved, as was Lincoln's evolving opposition to slavery.


Corwin Amendment
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You say my statement is misleading and then post evidence that confirms my statement. Lincoln’s “evolving” (I guess some people buy this) had more to do with placing moral blame on a disaster that he was responsible for when the war was going horribly for the Union. Lincoln even went so far as to blame God for the conflict. It sounds a lot better than saying you went to war to collect a tariff.
 
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#339
#339
hog88 said:
They didn’t commit treason.
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“There are but two parties now: traitors and patriots. And I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter and, I trust, the stronger party.” - Ulysses S. Grant

If it wasn’t s treason there would have been no reason to issue the leaders of the rebellion blanket pardons.
 
#341
#341
midnight orange said:
You say my statement is misleading and then post evidence that confirms my statement. Lincoln’s “evolving” (I guess some people buy this) had more to do with placing moral blame on a disaster that he was responsible for when the war was going horribly for the Union. Lincoln even went so far as to blame God for the conflict. It sounds a lot better than saying you went to war to collect a tariff.
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Completely false narrative. Lincoln personally opposed slavery, however, he initially believed the Constitution prevented its repeal in the South.
 
#342
#342
carlos86 said:
“There are but two parties now: traitors and patriots. And I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter and, I trust, the stronger party.” - Ulysses S. Grant

If it wasn’t s treason there would have been no reason to issue the leaders of the rebellion blanket pardons.
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There wasn’t a reason to issue them pardons. The confederate states peacefully separated from a union they voluntarily joined.
 
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#346
#346
MontyPython said:
Completely false narrative. Lincoln personally opposed slavery, however, he initially believed the Constitution prevented its repeal in the South.
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And backed a constitutional ammendment codifying it. I do not necessarily care what politicians say as opposed to what they do and Lincoln’s actions prior to the civil war supported slavery. Up is down and right is left is a poor stance.

Notwithstanding, even if you take Lincoln at his word (which was worth very little), the best you can say is that Lincoln was neutral on slavery.
 
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#347
#347
hog88 said:
They didn’t commit treason.
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Actually, they did. The Constitution says treason is the act of waging war against the US and aiding/abetting it's enemies. The US simply chose not to prosecute and hang Confederates.
 
#348
#348
KB5252 said:
Savages is a lazy and incomplete understanding of their culture. They were savage in battle but much different in regular life.

I'm sure they viewed us as the savages.
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Read up on the tribes especially in Central America. Cannablism, incest, human sacrifice, genocide and slavery to boot. They were savages
 
#350
#350
Rickyvol77 said:
Read up on the tribes especially in Central America. Cannablism, incest, human sacrifice, genocide and slavery to boot. They were savages
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We were speaking about North America, specifically US weren't we?
 
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