Richmond is taking down Confederate statues: Is this the end for other Confederate memorials?

#428
#428
Tyler Durden said:
Glad to know the vast majority of posters here believe the Confederacy has no place in America!
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Not sure if sarcasm or not as I do not see a consensus to support or oppose tearing down historical monuments .

By saying “the Confederacy has no place in America!” what exactly are you saying ?

I can agree that there are aspects of the Confederacy that most definitely have no place in America . Slavery is the obvious practice that had or has no place in America although slavery did not exist in a vacuum that was exclusive to States that were south of the Mason - Dixon line . Industries in the Northern states bought a lot of cotton too and did not concern themselves with who picked it. In 1860 roughly 3/4 of the worlds cotton came from the South .

Simply stated Southern cotton was in high demand and the purveyor and end user by and large did not care how they got it. Kind of like today where Nike’s and iPhones are made in sweat shops by child labor under abhorrent conditions .

My point is that the vast majority of civilization were not concerned with how they got their cotton. This is complex and messy but at a bare minimum the vast majority were at best complacent in the continuation of slavery in the U.S.

Again , I agree wholeheartedly that the CSA’s belief that slavery should remain & the CSA leaders who supported this were wrong . The question I pose to your original statement is by saying “the Confederacy has no place “ do you mean Slavery and inequality have no place in today’s society or do you mean that any reference to the CSA has no place in America? Do you believe that we should just simply erase any and all references to the CSA from history?
 
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#429
#429
Jravol78 said:
Not sure if sarcasm or not as I do not see a consensus to support or oppose tearing down historical monuments .

By saying “the Confederacy has no place in America!” what exactly are you saying ?

I can agree that there are aspects of the Confederacy that most definitely have no place in America . Slavery is the obvious practice that had or has no place in America although slavery did not exist in a vacuum that was exclusive to States that were south of the Mason - Dixon line . Industries in the Northern states bought a lot of cotton too and did not concern themselves with who picked it. In 1860 roughly 3/4 of the worlds cotton came from the South .

Simply stated Southern cotton was in high demand and the purveyor and end user by and large did not care how they got it. Kind of like today where Nike’s and iPhones are made in sweat shops by child labor under abhorrent conditions .

My point is that the vast majority of civilization were not concerned with how they got their cotton. This is complex and messy but at a bare minimum the vast majority were at best complacent in the continuation of slavery in the U.S.

Again , I agree wholeheartedly that the CSA’s belief that slavery should remain & the CSA leaders who supported this were wrong . The question I pose to your original statement is by saying “the Confederacy has no place “ do you mean Slavery and inequality have no place in today’s society or do you mean that any reference to the CSA has no place in America? Do you believe that we should just simply erase any and all references to the CSA from history?
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As I stated before, the Confederacy has no place in America. It's literally what I mean.
 
#431
#431
Jravol78 said:
Yes , coming to terms with prior impressions weighed against new facts coming to light years after a once almost saint like public figure come to light proving them human can be challenging.
I'm an MLK scholar – and I'll never be able to view King in the same light
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He was stated as being honorable. Not too many honorable people I know will lead hundreds of thousands of US citizens to their death over an issue that he didn’t even support. But hey, MLK ****ed some hookers so there’s that.
 
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#432
#433
#433
Tyler Durden said:
It's literally what I mean.
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Fair enough Tyler . I’m not trying to be a smart ass I really do like to “discuss “ and cordially discuss all aspects of a subject to try to understand someone else’s opinion. I believe that is why these forums and discussions exist although they almost always end in a contentious gridlock with one side claiming victory .

I’m all about the give and take of a reasonable conversation about sometimes very uncomfortable subjects.

I guess though just to clarify my followup question for clarity although I think you already answered it is this. Do you believe even the mention in history books of the Confederacy should be removed ?
 
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#434
#434
Tyler Durden said:
As I stated before, the Confederacy has no place in America. It's literally what I mean.
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But historical monuments do have a place. History isn’t all sunshine and rainbows. It’s filled with tragedies and despicable people. But that doesn’t mean any of it should be forgotten or swept under the rug just because it bothers some people.
 
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#435
#435
Jravol78 said:
Fair enough Tyler . I’m not trying to be a smart ass I really do like to “discuss “ and cordially discuss all aspects of a subject to try to understand someone else’s opinion. I believe that is why these forums and discussions exist although they almost always end in a contentious gridlock with one side claiming victory .

I’m all about the give and take of a reasonable conversation about sometimes very uncomfortable subjects.

I guess though just to clarify my followup question for clarity although I think you already answered it is this. Do you believe even the mention in history books of the Confederacy should be removed ?
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No I don't. I think it's unhealthy and non-productive to completely erase history no matter how evil it is. But statues aren't books. The entire purpose of a statue is to honor someone or something like it was just, righteous, and heroic. The Confederacy was anything but that. No one's stopping anyone from picking up a book, going on Wikipedia, or using the internet to learn about the Confederacy.
 
#436
#436
BigOrangeTrain said:
But historical monuments do have a place. History isn’t all sunshine and rainbows. It’s filled with tragedies and despicable people. But that doesn’t mean any of it should be forgotten or swept under the rug just because it bothers some people.
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What's stopping you from picking up a book?
 
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#437
#437
GoBigOrangeUT said:
And Lee was never considered saint like. He developed a cult that did some revisioning on his history and that’s on them.
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I will address both of your responses in one post GBOUT. No man or woman should ever be built up to saint like status. In the final analysis we are all human with varying degrees of human failings and shortcomings .

MLK did more than F’d a few hookers . He smacked them around , he encouraged another “pastor” while said “pastor “ sexually assaulted a parishioner .

Robert E Lee led thousands of troops who were killed in battle in the official capacity as their leader on the battlefield . His decision to side with his home state of VA in leaving and taking up arms against the US may have been wrong or misguided.
Those he led however volunteered and went to their deaths on a battlefield . US Grant , Sherman , Patton , Eisenhower , Westmoreland etc... also “led thousands to their deaths “

Lee owned slaves , so did many of the founding fathers including Washington (who also “led 1000’s to their deaths “ ) Jefferson , so on and so on.

The article I posted was about MLK’s legacy in the day of #METOO & how the perception of that legacy was being questioned by the author of the article . I did not say MLK bad Robert E Lee good , I just said history and legacies are tricky . They are most tricky when we try to take societal norms from the past to distant past and apply them to societal norms and beliefs of today.
 
#438
#438
BigOrangeTrain said:
But historical monuments do have a place. History isn’t all sunshine and rainbows. It’s filled with tragedies and despicable people. But that doesn’t mean any of it should be forgotten or swept under the rug just because it bothers some people.
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We have museums and books for that. No need to publicly put people on pedestals who don’t belong there
 
#439
#439
Tyler Durden said:
No I don't. I think it's unhealthy and non-productive to completely erase history no matter how evil it is. But statues aren't books. The entire purpose of a statue is to honor someone or something like it was just, righteous, and heroic. The Confederacy was anything but that. No one's stopping anyone from picking up a book, going on Wikipedia, or using the internet to learn about the Confederacy.
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Again, fair enough and thank you for honestly stating your opinion . People older and wiser than me taught me a long time ago that sometimes you can learn valuable lessons by engaging in conversation with those who do not share the exact same view as yourself . Sometimes no lol .... but many times yes.

You did state “people are free to pickup a book” so I was wondering your thoughts on whether or not the Confederacy should be addressed in schools ? The civil war in general ?
 
#445
#445
NashVol11 said:
We have museums and books for that. No need to publicly put people on pedestals who don’t belong there
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Like Martin Luther King? Like Malcom X?

In late 1945, Malcolm returned to Boston, where he and four accomplices committed a series of burglaries targeting wealthy white families. In 1946, he was arrested while picking up a stolen watch he had left at a shop for repairs, and in February began serving an eight-to-ten-year sentence at Charlestown State Prison for larceny and breaking and entering.


A controversial figure accused of preaching racism and violence, Malcolm X is a widely celebrated figure within African-American and Muslim American communities for his pursuit of racial justice. He was posthumously honored with Malcolm X Day, where he is commemorated in various cities across the United States. Hundreds of streets and SCHOOLS have been renamed in his honor, while the Audubon Ballroom, the site of his assassination, was partly redeveloped in 2005 to accommodate the Malcolm X and Dr. Betty Shabazz Memorial and Educational Center.
 
#447
#447
Statue_of_Lenin_Seattle.jpg

Seattle, Washington

Adam Jones claims that "there is very little in the record of human experience to match the violence unleashed between 1917, when the Bolsheviks took power, and 1953, when Joseph Stalin died and the Soviet Union moved to adopt a more restrained and largely non-murderous domestic policy". He notes the exceptions being the Khmer Rouge (in relative terms) and Mao's rule in China (in absolute terms).
 
#448
#448
Franklin Pierce said:
Like Martin Luther King? Like Malcom X?

In late 1945, Malcolm returned to Boston, where he and four accomplices committed a series of burglaries targeting wealthy white families. In 1946, he was arrested while picking up a stolen watch he had left at a shop for repairs, and in February began serving an eight-to-ten-year sentence at Charlestown State Prison for larceny and breaking and entering.


A controversial figure accused of preaching racism and violence, Malcolm X is a widely celebrated figure within African-American and Muslim American communities for his pursuit of racial justice. He was posthumously honored with Malcolm X Day, where he is commemorated in various cities across the United States. Hundreds of streets and SCHOOLS have been renamed in his honor, while the Audubon Ballroom, the site of his assassination, was partly redeveloped in 2005 to accommodate the Malcolm X and Dr. Betty Shabazz Memorial and Educational Center.
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Didn't you post this the other day? Didn't you fail to respond when I pointed out that the link to "Malcolm X Day" lists only one city that celebrates it? Can you let me know where I can find a Malcolm X Elementary School?
 
#449
#449
clarksvol00 said:
Didn't you post this the other day? Didn't you fail to respond when I pointed out that the link to "Malcolm X Day" lists only one city that celebrates it? Can you let me know where I can find a Malcolm X Elementary School?
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You can find a Malcolm X Shabazz High School in Newark, N.J., a Malcolm Shabazz City High School in Madison, Wisconsin, a Malcom X College in Chicago, and a Malcolm X Library and Performing Arts Center in San Diego.
 
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#450
#450
1972 Grad said:
You can find a Malcolm X Shabazz High School in Newark, N.J., a Malcolm Shabazz City High School in Madison, Wisconsin, a Malcom X College in Chicago, and a Malcolm X Library and Performing Arts Center in San Diego.
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Thank you. I searched google maps for "malcolm x" after this was first posted a few days ago and got 3 hits for streets and no schools.
 
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