Richmond is taking down Confederate statues: Is this the end for other Confederate memorials?

#751
#751
midnight orange said:
The primary reason the first wave of states to secede was over slavery. The south had basically created a cult of white supremacy that permeated every aspect of society including religious justification for slavery. That gave poor whites status by virtue of being white. The idea of abolition threatened their status, however low. The idea of Lincoln’s opposition to popular sovereignty in the western territories threatened leaders in the south, who due to the 3/5’s clause, had amplified power in the congress relative to their population. Some, like Robert E. Lee, were opposed to secession but placed their loyalty with their state when the rubber hit the road. Others saw approaching Union armies coming to destroy their property and rightly perceived it as a threat.
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Great post. The monolith of the "Old South" has always been problematic for me to wrap my head around, because (given that life expectancy in the 1850s-1860s was slightly over 40 years) the states of LA, MISS, AL, ARK, FL, and TX all came into the Union during the period 1812 or later...so one generation removed from the territorial phase was "Old." ??? Also, the South was an economically diverse area, and there were different variations of slavery, depending on what the economy in that particular area called for. But the common thread uniting those diverse areas that joined together was slavery. It cannot be ignored in the discussion.
 
#752
#752
Weezer said:
What were non-slave owning Southerners fighting for? Were they also fighting for an institution they didn't practice? Or were they fighting for their states? I think slavery was a reason, but not the only reason. The majority of white Southerners did not own slaves. I think an argument can even be made that the rich slaveowners drug the non-slaveholders into the war, but we're talking about a time period where identity was defined more by state than by country. Even the Army, on both sides, was regimented by state. People saw themselves a citizen of their state before they viewed themselves as "Americans". So to list slavery as the only cause is an oversimplification and pure laziness and unwillingness to understand more was in play. There were some who fought for slavery, but there were others who were simply fighting for their homes. It's not one or the other, both are true.
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Regarding the way people viewed the states; the Murderer John Brown was charged with murder and treason, not treason against the United States, but treason against the state of Virginia.
 
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#753
#753
Weezer said:
What were non-slave owning Southerners fighting for? Were they also fighting for an institution they didn't practice? Or were they fighting for their states? I think slavery was a reason, but not the only reason. The majority of white Southerners did not own slaves. I think an argument can even be made that the rich slaveowners drug the non-slaveholders into the war, but we're talking about a time period where identity was defined more by state than by country. Even the Army, on both sides, was regimented by state. People saw themselves a citizen of their state before they viewed themselves as "Americans". So to list slavery as the only cause is an oversimplification and pure laziness and unwillingness to understand more was in play. There were some who fought for slavery, but there were others who were simply fighting for their homes. It's not one or the other, both are true.
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They were fighting for the rich slave owners. Same thing that is going on today. The poor whites are fighting for the rich. Poor people have more in common, but if you give them someone to hate....eureka.
You're being disingenuous stating that slavery was not the cause. You can try and rewrite history, romanticize all you want. The south was fighting to keep people as property.
 
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#754
#754
titansvolsfaninga said:
They were fighting for the rich slave owners. Same thing that is going on today. The poor whites are fighting for the rich. Poor people have more in common, but if you give them someone to hate....eureka.
You're being disingenuous stating that slavery was not the cause. You can try and rewrite history, romanticize all you want. The south was fighting to keep people as property.
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BLACK LIVES MATTER approves of your message.
 
#756
#756
GordonC said:
Great post. The monolith of the "Old South" has always been problematic for me to wrap my head around, because (given that life expectancy in the 1850s-1860s was slightly over 40 years) the states of LA, MISS, AL, ARK, FL, and TX all came into the Union during the period 1812 or later...so one generation removed from the territorial phase was "Old." ??? Also, the South was an economically diverse area, and there were different variations of slavery, depending on what the economy in that particular area called for. But the common thread uniting those diverse areas that joined together was slavery. It cannot be ignored in the discussion.
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The reason that life expectancy was that low was due, in large part, to many childhood deaths. There were still a lot of people who lived to be in their 80's.
 
#757
#757
As some of us have said before these democrats/antifa/commies won’t settle for just confederate statues, now it’s Columbus next it will be former presidents. You can’t give in to these thugs or this is what you get
 
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#758
#758
1972 Grad said:
The reason that life expectancy was that low was due, in large part, to many childhood deaths. There were still a lot of people who lived to be in their 80's.
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That is true, and a lot of records were destroyed during the war as well. It's hard to know with any level of certainty. So those areas then, at least for some folks, were not even a generation removed from the territorial stage.
 
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#759
#759
titansvolsfaninga said:
They were fighting for the rich slave owners. Same thing that is going on today. The poor whites are fighting for the rich. Poor people have more in common, but if you give them someone to hate....eureka.
You're being disingenuous stating that slavery was not the cause. You can try and rewrite history, romanticize all you want. The south was fighting to keep people as property.
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Disingenuous? I stated slavery as a cause, not the only cause. Disingenuous is thinking slavery was the only reason. Lincoln himself was a white supremacist. His speeches support this. Disingenuous is not acknowledging that when the North invaded the South, some people were simply defending their homes. Slavery was an evil institution that needed to fall, but it was not the only reason for the war. Hell, disingenuous is believing there was one, and only one, reason for the Civil War to happen.
 
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#760
#760
evillawyer said:
Good thread on some of these "esteemed" men of "proper" southern breeding.

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If you had a time machine and went back to 1863 and visited the Army of Northern Virginia you'd be hard to find any soldier saying it was protect slavery. Just as if you went to the Army of the Potomac you wouldn't find many saying it was to abolish it.
 
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#761
#761
GordonC said:
That is true, and a lot of records were destroyed during the war as well. It's hard to know with any level of certainty. So those areas then, at least for some folks, were not even a generation removed from the territorial stage.
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I have my family tree going back a couple hundred years, and it seemed they either died at birth or very young, or they lived to be 85. They would have 7 or 8 kids and always lose a couple. That even happened to the siblings of both of my parents. They each both lost a baby brother or sister shortly after 1900, but they both lived to be in their 90's.
 
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#762
#762
1972 Grad said:
I have my family tree going back a couple hundred years, and it seemed they either died at birth or very young, or they lived to be 85. They would have 7 or 8 kids and always lose a couple. That even happened to the siblings of both of my parents. They each both lost a baby brother or sister shortly after 1900, but they both lived to be in their 90's.
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My mother was the youngest of seven who survived (two died before they turned 3, and that was in the early 20s). My dad also had a brother who died very young (about a year old). They are in their 80s now. We like to assume that we can "know" about population, but a lot of the time when you go back far enough a birth or marriage record is in a family Bible and folks might have lied to census takers. I look at old census records sometimes and it's a struggle just to read the handwriting on there. It's interesting.
 
#764
#764
1972 Grad said:
The reason that life expectancy was that low was due, in large part, to many childhood deaths. There were still a lot of people who lived to be in their 80's.
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My great great grandfather, a Confederate veteran who survived over a year in a Yankee prison, suffering from a severe case of Dysentery, lived to be 87 years old.
 
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#765
#765
Leaked 2015 Democrat Memo Warned Lawmakers ‘Don’t Offer Support’ for ‘Radical’ Black Lives Matter

A leaked 2015 internal Democrat Party memo warned top House Democrats not to embrace the Black Lives Matter movement because it was described by the Democrat Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) as a “radical movement.”

The memo, from then-DCCC official Troy Perry addressed to “DCCC Staff” on Thursday Nov. 19, 2015, noted that the Democrats’ 2016 presidential candidates “have struggled to respond to tactics of the Black Lives Matter movement.” Perry was at the time he wrote this the DCCC’s Director of Diversity and Public Engagement.

Democrats-Take-a-Knee-in-Kente-Cloth-640x480.jpg


Perry warned recipients of his memo in the next line that it was top secret and confidential—not to be shared with anyone. “This document should not be emailed or handed to anyone outside of the building,” he wrote. “Please only give campaign staff these best practices in meetings or over the phone.”

Leaked 2015 Memo Warned Dems: Don't Back ‘Radical' Black Lives Matter
 
#768
#768
Franklin Pierce said:
Dysentery was the single leading killer of soldiers during the War of Northern Aggression. Dysentery differed from common diarrhea because dysentery was caused by a bacterial infection.
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Still the sh!ts though, right? I think I read that worldwide, either 1-1/2 or 2-1/2 million people die yearly from diarrhea.
 
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#771
#771
Can’t wait to see these racist fools take down the statues of Gen P G T Beauregard. They best do their homework.
 
#772
#772
Franklin Pierce said:
My great great grandfather, a Confederate veteran who survived over a year in a Yankee prison, suffering from a severe case of Dysentery, lived to be 87 years old.
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My g-g-grandfather on my mother's side lived to 73.

My two g-g-g-grandfather on my dad's side one lived to 72 the other 67.

All were Confederate veterans.
 
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#774
#774
Weezer said:
Disingenuous? I stated slavery as a cause, not the only cause. Disingenuous is thinking slavery was the only reason. Lincoln himself was a white supremacist. His speeches support this. Disingenuous is not acknowledging that when the North invaded the South, some people were simply defending their homes. Slavery was an evil institution that needed to fall, but it was not the only reason for the war. Hell, disingenuous is believing there was one, and only one, reason for the Civil War to happen.
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The north invaded the south? What history books you reading? Take them and throw them in the trash.
Slavery was the main reason, like it or not.
 
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