Rick Barnes discussion (merged)

[Stoerner Fumbles]

Was being the operative word. Winning a title changes that. Rick hasn't come close. I'm just dealing in facts here.

No, you’re just pretending like you understand something you don’t. You can’t say that a coach has a style that doesn’t work in March and then revise your opinion after they win. Tony Bennett coached the first 1 seed to ever lose to a 16. Everyone blamed his style. Next year he won the tournament. Same coach, same style. In that same year, we lost a fluke game to an unknown guard who had the biggest game of his life against us. That team barely lost to UVA who barely beat Auburn. Any of those teams in the final eight could’ve won that year. I’d argue that we would’ve beaten UVA and Auburn had we beaten Purdue. It’s razor thin at that level. It sure wasn’t coaching style that won that year, because the same style was out in the first round to a 16 the year before.

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

I don't agree with this. I don't think his style of play has evolved much at all. He is a balls to wall, all out defensive coach. If you don't give that level of effort on defense, you don't see the floor. He prioritizes this over offense, clearly. And it'll win you a lot of games.

But the team still runs this goofy motion offense that usually wastes the first 15 seconds of the shot clock just aimlessly passing the ball around the perimeter with no plan or intent to attack the basket or put pressure on the defense. They did it with Grant, they did it with DK, they did it with Kevin Punter Jr., and they are doing it now. If they are hitting perimeter shots, it looks great. But therein lies the rub: You aren't going to consistently hit perimeter shots away from home against good teams in March, especially playing that hard on defense, so you need a backup plan like drawing fouls, feeding the post, etc. DK was that backup plan last year, but you rarely have an offensive player that talented who can play 1 on 5 and get you a tough basket like that.

Of course that is all my opinion, but I have traveled to see this team play a lot of basketball over the last 10 years and it is often very frustrating given the talent this guy recruits. I wish it wasn't that way, because Rick is an absolute class act and a great dude by all accounts. I so want to see him get to the top. I just don't have much faith.

You think Izzo is less demanding on defense?

 

[TheMookieMonster]

If it doesn’t happen under him then nobody reading this thread will live to see one, in all likelihood.

Seems a bit extreme. There are significantly worse coaches than Barnes that have face planted into a Final Four by pure luck. We could theoretically hire a mediocre coach who gets us into the dance and just has all of the cards perfectly align for a miracle run. These things happen. I still think this program has become too elite for another 20-30 years to pass without a single Final Four.

 

[SeanJean]

Driving into the paint isn’t necessarily a low risk/high reward strategy. And TN hasn’t had huge post players that can camp out near the rim and get easy scores.

Yes. SEC regular season titles had been rare. SEC Tournament championships have been non-existent. Even making the SECT Finals had happened when? One time since Devoe’s first year. Each week of the NCAAT is in effect a championship needed to make a regional/S16. And beating Kansas at the Atlantis holiday tournament was yet another championship.

Enjoy your misery.

Who is responsible for getting post players do you think?

Again, you are looking at all of those through the prism of years of bad and neglected basketball teams under a program that no one supported or cared about. When you have top recruiting classes and have one of the highest paid coaches, you can't keep treating your team that way with the same expectations.

And I'm not miserable brother. I'm doing great.

 

[SeanJean]

You think Izzo is less demanding on defense?

lol are you seriously comparing Tom Izzo to Rick Barnes? Stop, please.

 

[SeanJean]

No, you’re just pretending like you understand something you don’t. You can’t say that a coach has a style that doesn’t work in March and then revise your opinion after they win. Tony Bennett coached the first 1 seed to ever lose to a 16. Everyone blamed his style. Next year he won the tournament. Same coach, same style. In that same year, we lost a fluke game to an unknown guard who had the biggest game of his life against us. That team barely lost to UVA who barely beat Auburn. Any of those teams in the final eight could’ve won that year. I’d argue that we would’ve beaten UVA and Auburn had we beaten Purdue. It’s razor thin at that level. It sure wasn’t coaching style that won that year, because the same style was out in the first round to a 16 the year before.

I never said Tony Bennett had a style that can't work in March. That was you. Or someone else.

I said Rick Barnes does. Keep up.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Barnes's last major hurdle at Tennessee is to get the team into the Final Four before he hangs it up.

I think he could stick around for several more years after a Final 4. He’s won on an un-level playing field his entire career having to compete with the advantages granted to the blue bloods. Now with Danny bringing the NIL money Barnes could go on a multi-year run that might never be matched at TN.

 

[SeanJean]

He didn’t do it with Grant at all - just not true. That last Grant team was actually poor defensively and had to outscore teams. All you have to do is a little research, and you will see breakdowns of the offense that year where Bone played uptempo. It’s all out there.

Ok, I stand corrected with the 2019 season. That 2019 team was so good too. My most disappointing flame out in the NCAA tournament of any team. That team had everything, and still they didn't make it past the Sweet 16. Still stings.

 

[SeanJean]

I think he could stick around for several more years after a Final 4. He’s won on an un-level playing field his entire career having to compete with the advantages granted to the blue bloods. Now with Danny bringing the NIL money Barnes could go on a multi-year run that might never be matched at TN.

I would love to see that.

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

I never said Tony Bennett had a style that can't work in March. That was you. Or someone else.

I said Rick Barnes does. Keep up.

I’m not missing anything. Your logic is flawed. What attribute of Barnes’ coaching style hampers him from winning more in March?

 

[SeanJean]

I’m not missing anything. Your logic is flawed. What attribute of Barnes’ coaching style hampers him from winning more in March?

The one where his teams don’t run offensive sets and then settle for bad perimeter shots late in the shot clock. I.e. the thing I’ve been saying the entire time.

 

[Lankykong]

The one where his teams don’t run offensive sets and then settle for bad perimeter shots late in the shot clock. I.e. the thing I’ve been saying the entire time.

That’s pretty much Bruce Pearl’s preferred set and he got a final four

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

The one where his teams don’t run offensive sets and then settle for bad perimeter shots late in the shot clock. I.e. the thing I’ve been saying the entire time.

We run a motion offense with scripted and unscripted plays. We’re in good company there. The 2019 team was third in the country in offensive efficiency. Nothing about that team suggested bad shots late in the clock. Last year we were 23rd in offensive efficiency. Given our defense, that was the best statistical KenPom defense in history, those are winning averages. Losing a game in the elite eight by a few points looks a lot like winning that same game. It really just comes down to a couple of bad bounces or missed shots. Last year, we encountered a center who was incapable of fouling while drawing endless fouls. He was the difference, not our offense.

 

[SeanJean]

That’s pretty much Bruce Pearl’s preferred set and he got a final four

Bruce Pearl teams attack. Sometimes, it leads to bad shots, but his teams are very aggressive on offense. They also jack up some crazy shots, no doubt.

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

I'm agreeing with you and taking your side but ok, whatever

Yeah, I'm sorry. I thought I was responding to this SeanJean clown. My apologies

 

[SeanJean]

If by “offensive sets” you mean “set plays” we ran those in each of those losses to different Purdue teams. If you are questioning the offense as a whole, you’re questioning motion principles. Barnes has some pretty good company there.

You're right, I am. Glad you're catching on.

Not trying to troll everyone and piss everybody off, but if you call a spade a spade everyone gets pissed off and starts referencing offensive efficiency and Wade Houston. Go Vols. Just want to see us win.

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

Was being the operative word. Winning a title changes that. Rick hasn't come close. I'm just dealing in facts here.

No, your takes are nothing more than opinions

 

[SeanJean]

No, your takes are nothing more than opinions

Pretty sure it ain't an opinion that Rick hasn't come close to winning a title there chief.

 

[Stoked]

Kim Caldwell was coaching d2 ball 18 months ago. She was absolutely a Google Coach. Doesn’t mean she won’t succeed but if he can’t get a bigger name than that to take over the biggest brand in women’s basketball, you should probably temper your expectations for Rick’s successor.

It will almost certainly be a mid major coach unless it’s a promotion from within the staff

Yup just look at UK, UNC, and Duke. All hired former players and all were/are inexperienced. Two were assistants and one was a HC with zero tourney wins. Even Louisville who has a way better program had to go the mid major route.

People need to temper their expectations because we are most likely hiring within or a mid major. Doesn’t mean it can’t be a good hirer though…

 

[VolGee4]

That’s pretty much Bruce Pearl’s preferred set and he got a final four

So true.

 

[VolGee4]

You're right, I am. Glad you're catching on.

Not trying to troll everyone and piss everybody off, but if you call a spade a spade everyone gets pissed off and starts referencing offensive efficiency and Wade Houston. Go Vols. Just want to see us win.

People get pissed when you spin the facts and talk non-sense. Just spinning a narrative.

 

[SeanJean]

People get pissed when you spin the facts and talk non-sense. Just spinning a narrative.

Spin facts lol. Ok guys.

 

[knoxvol52]

Meaningless Exhibition game turns into a debate. Mid season form already ..

 

[Chris4Vols22]

Spin facts lol. Ok guys.

I'm sure you've noticed by now, but this board is not ready for good-faith critical discussions about Barnes.

It's true that we are likely living in the pinnacle of UT bball right now, pretty much entirely thanks to Barnes. It's also true that his NCAA tournament struggles are disproportionate to his regular season successes. Some people want to see UT aggressively go after a coach with a perceived higher likelihood of further advancement in the tournament, some people think the risk of that idea does not justify the means. Both are valid points imo, but I have to lean toward Barnes's side of that argument, especially since we advanced to the Elite 8 last year. But we have suspiciously not played up to our potential when it's mattered the most in other seasons.

It's an interesting discussion imo. We all love the Vols, and no one is happy when we lose, even if it's a charity exhibition game. I personally think the best thing to do is to save this discussion for another time. People drew conclusions after the Michigan State game last year, and the same thing is happening now. In reality, who knows what will happen between now and March....

 

[VolGee4]

I'm sure you've noticed by now, but this board is not ready for good-faith critical discussions about Barnes.

It's true that we are likely living in the pinnacle of UT bball right now, pretty much entirely thanks to Barnes. It's also true that his NCAA tournament struggles are disproportionate to his regular season successes. Some people want to see UT aggressively go after a coach with a perceived higher likelihood of further advancement in the tournament, some people think the risk of that idea does not justify the means. Both are valid points imo, but I have to lean toward Barnes's side of that argument, especially since we advanced to the Elite 8 last year. But we have suspiciously not played up to our potential when it's mattered the most in other seasons.

It's an interesting discussion imo. We all love the Vols, and no one is happy when we lose, even if it's a charity exhibition game. I personally think the best thing to do is to save this discussion for another time. People drew conclusions after the Michigan State game last year, and the same thing is happening now. In reality, who knows what will happen between now and March....

I just don’t understand why people can’t enjoy what is happening. Some are probably trolling, and some are just miserable. But the man took a dumpster fire (that’s not debatable) and is succeeding at the highest (or at least the same as a prior coach) in our program’s history. One can provide constructive criticism, but the constant bemoaning is ridiculous to me. There will come a day when we don’t have Rick Barnes, we will miss a couple of NCAAT’s, and people will clamor for our current success. It will happen at some point. Just enjoy what we are witnessing.