Rick Barnes: Year One

[vol66]

I love the ones here that everything is black and white, and nothing like injuries changes the perception at all. Also love that it's 2 of the usual suspects going along with that line of thinking.

If one's expectation is .500+ one, and the leading scorer and point player gets hurt, is it reasonable to have the same expectation?

When Punter got hurt I didn't think we'd win another game, then we beat LSU, of course we now know that LSU was not as advertised.

We could have tanked the rest of the way like...Auburn.

We end up getting 2 SEC tourney wins, that alone should raise Barnes' grade a little.

 

[VolGee4]

I just read the article below and am pretty concerned about Barnes and the long term health for the team:

This is Texas? Shaka Smart overcomes red tape, high expectations, internal politics in first year | Hookem.com

Looks like Smart had a lot of legacy issues to deal with and while Barnes is only called out for his "hard driving style" some of the academic and cultural challenges tell me a lot about what he allowed to happen under his watch.

Bottom line is Texas' new coach did a lot with his time and they are playing in the tourney. We have a lot of questions after this season and the D+ seems warranted.

I hope that I am wrong and he can create a healthy program that contends vs. defines itself by a few upsets here and there....

Thoughts?

Not sure that I got as negative of a vibe out of that about Barnes as you did. But, you have to remember that Barnes recruited and played alot of NBA talent that weren't going to play long in college. Their goal wasn't to graduate. Shaka Smart came from an institution where he had 4-5 year players.

Now, Barnes is in a position where he is not recruiting those one and done guys anymore, and I believe he has publicly stated as such. So, his approach will probably be different.

I don't believe the red tape had anything to do with Barnes.

 

[buzz4tennessee]

So you use the prediction thread to make your point Barnes didn't meet expectations, then use solely your opinion to determine Tyndall exceeded expectations? Why is that?

I know that you know EVERYTHING, but why is this a prediction thread and not an evaluation thread?

 

[BruinVol]

Not sure that I got as negative of a vibe out of that about Barnes as you did. But, you have to remember that Barnes recruited and played alot of NBA talent that weren't going to play long in college. Their goal wasn't to graduate. Shaka Smart came from an institution where he had 4-5 year players.

Now, Barnes is in a position where he is not recruiting those one and done guys anymore, and I believe he has publicly stated as such. So, his approach will probably be different.

I don't believe the red tape had anything to do with Barnes.

Agreed. I didn't take it to be so much Negative about Barnes either

 

[Chris4Vols22]

Tyndall must have had an IEP

More PPI, duh!

 

[buzz4tennessee]

Not sure that I got as negative of a vibe out of that about Barnes as you did. But, you have to remember that Barnes recruited and played alot of NBA talent that weren't going to play long in college. Their goal wasn't to graduate. Shaka Smart came from an institution where he had 4-5 year players.

Now, Barnes is in a position where he is not recruiting those one and done guys anymore, and I believe he has publicly stated as such. So, his approach will probably be different.

I don't believe the red tape had anything to do with Barnes.

Last summer, when many on this board were salivating over the hiring of Barnes and expectations of NCAA invitations, I posted many times with the purpose of trying to convince fans that the situation here was much different than that of UTA. It's human nature for fan bases to take the news of a hire such as CRB and fantasize about all of the upside w/o considering all of factors that the new coach is going to face. When things don't go as fast as the fantasizers expect, then they wonder why.

 

[FleeceItOut]

Agreed. I didn't take it to be so much Negative about Barnes either

Serious question--did you think that this year's roster was more talented than last year's?

To be fair I'm talking about the preseason when predictions are made, and if you did feel that way that's fine, but why?

 

[BruinVol]

Serious question--did you think that this year's roster was more talented than last year's?

To be fair I'm talking about the preseason when predictions are made, and if you did feel that way that's fine, but why?

I think it was a wash.

Mostella, Hubbs, and punters improvements should have made up for the loss of Richardson.

Phillips and Schoefield were nice additions and baulkman and Reese should have had a normal years experience progression.


So looking at that portion of the roster should have been a upgrade

Owens, Carmichael for kasongo, Alexander was a downgrade to even up to a wash IMO

 

[FleeceItOut]

I think it was a wash.

Mostella, Hubbs, and punters improvements should have made up for the loss of Richardson.

Phillips and Schoefield were nice additions and baulkman and Reese should have had a normal years experience progression.


So looking at that portion of the roster should have been a upgrade

Owens, Carmichael for kasongo, Alexander was a downgrade to even up to a wash IMO

Okay--so do you still think that it was a wash?

 

[BruinVol]

Okay--so do you still think that it was a wash?

After punters injury I don't.

But I think Barnes deserves a great deal of criticism for hubbs, reese, and Mostellas lack of production before the SEC tourney


So all in all yes a wash

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I think it was a wash.

Mostella, Hubbs, and punters improvements should have made up for the loss of Richardson.

Phillips and Schoefield were nice additions and baulkman and Reese should have had a normal years experience progression.


So looking at that portion of the roster should have been a upgrade

Owens, Carmichael for kasongo, Alexander was a downgrade to even up to a wash IMO

Woah woah woah...

So you're admitting right here the rosters are a wash, yet you said earlier today you expected Tyndall to win 13-14 games, but expected Barnes to win 16-17 games.

If the rosters were a wash why would you expect a 2-4 game better season than the previous expectation you had? Almost sounds to me like you intentionally set the bar higher for Barnes, no?

 

[BruinVol]

Woah woah woah...

So you're admitting right here the rosters are a wash, yet you said earlier today you expected Tyndall to win 13-14 games, but expected Barnes to win 16-17 games.

If the rosters were a wash why would you expect a 2-4 game better season than the previous expectation you had? Almost sounds to me like you intentionally set the bar higher for Barnes, no?

Dear gracious

Last years team had only one proven player with all unknowns before the season returning a very small % of scoring


This years team returned a very high % of it's scoring.

It's isn't hard to understand the difference.


Also the schedules were different. One more game this year and IMO a slightly easier schedule. As it turns out those games we thought were so tough early in the season weren't all that this year

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Dear gracious

Last years team had only one proven player with all unknowns before the season returning a very small % of scoring


This years team returned a very high % of it's scoring.

It's isn't hard to understand the difference.


Also the schedules were different. One more game this year and IMO a slightly easier schedule. As it turns out those games we thought were so tough early in the season weren't all that this year

Lol ok

 

[3holenones]

He gets a pass this year.

Therefore, I give him a B.

The bad losses even out with the games we won that we had no business winning.

^this^. I don't see how anybody could have expected anymore than what CRB got out of this team. The blown leads keeps from giving an A.

 

[Vols4us]

Post was well done OP, agree with much of it.

Sometimes I think you have to look beyond the stats and the win loss column. Losing Punter and Hubbs at about the same time was a tough blow going down the stretch, and not just because of the points, but because Moore had to become the point. Harder to rebound when you start the possesion at the top of the key. So, not only did Barnes have to figure out how to manufacture the lost points but he also had to figure out how to get some rebounds. Reese's last few games were probably the best of his career.

The ongoing, somewhat controversial, attempts to motivate Hubbs might pay dividends next year. Whether one agrees with the tactics, of the three coaches Hubbs has had, this one seems hellbent on pushing him to reach his max potential.

The benching of players for lack of effort, setting the bar in terms of expectations for the future.

These are all things that don't show up in the box score, but are required of a first year coach laying the foundation for the future.

In the grand scheme of things, finishing 15-19 or 17-17 doesn't really matter this season.

From a win loss perspective Barnes did not exceed expectations, but we finished about where we were expected. In some other areas, being creative with the roster he had for instance, or overcoming areas of deficiency like point guard and lack of a true post player, he probably exceeded some expectations.

C+/B-

I agree. This is how I see and actually saw it preseason.

I posted that with Turner I was optimistic of them being a bubble team, which we now know means 19 wins. When I saw that was not happening I predicted 13 wins as i saw the performance of Alexander and Kasongo. When Punter went down they had 12 wins. Then Hubbs starts acting disinterested. Getting to 15 was as good of coaching job as I have ever seen with a roster that deficient. No coach is perfect. If Barnes had been this team might have won 17 games - whoopee. This season was purely for development and recruiting a better roster. Ask yourselves how many wins would there have been if Punter and Moore did not accept coaching and development before and during the season. Yeah, I thought so.

My grade would be B-/B. Early season lack of time outs in a few situations and missing in the early signing period on a real C drops the grade.

 

[BruinVol]

Lol ok

Yep it is

I recall you arguing very hard how much harder this years schedule was over last years.

Simply didn't work out that way.

This year we had a 54SOS. Last year was 51

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Yep it is

I recall you arguing very hard how much harder this years schedule was over last years.

Simply didn't work out that way.

This year we had a 54SOS. Last year was 51

So almost identical SOS, a roster that amounts to a wash, and yet you expected 2-4 more wins for Barnes than Tyndall...interesting.

 

[BruinVol]

So almost identical SOS, a roster that amounts to a wash, and yet you expected 2-4 more wins for Barnes than Tyndall...interesting.

Talent was a wash


Experience was way way way in favor of this years team.

Do I need to provide the % of points retuning for each team?

Games started for each team?

Surely you are smart enough to know that experience and talent aren't the same thing aren't you?

I expected 2 more wins and this years team had 1 more game to do it

 

[volakil]

Next seasons team will and should be strong in the backcourt with Turner, Mostella, Phillips, Parker, Bone & Johnson. My concern is how well the Bigs will progress. Our inside game has to improve or we'll be seeing a similar record again.

I agree the backcourt will be nice. Without Mostella they would still be good group. O course Hubbs leading with experince. Schofield and Alexander wont be enough to get it done. I dont thank Kasongo will hang around next season.

 

[TeddyYeti]

Getting Punter to change his shot is at least a C+.

 

[FleeceItOut]

Talent was a wash


Experience was way way way in favor of this years team.

Do I need to provide the % of points retuning for each team?

Games started for each team?

Surely you are smart enough to know that experience and talent aren't the same thing aren't you?

I expected 2 more wins and this years team had 1 more game to do it

You don't even account the fact that they lost their NBA guard and heart of the team.

I don't even see how you can say the talent was a wash preseason because it was a less talented team than last year's no matter how you spin it, based on losing Richardson alone.

Then you continue to say the talent was a wash postseason which is asinine when you factor in transfers and guys that didn't quite pan out as expected (i.e. kasongo).

Whether you want to admit it or not losing Punter may have cost the Vols at least two games, which apparently is the difference in Barnes and Tyndall on the grading scale.

Also, I think Barnes may have intentionally not cared about winning a few games this year just to send a message to his team, especially to guys like Hubbs and Mostella, which you constantly ragged Barnes for but it seemed to have worked come tournament time.

In my opinion, this year for Barnes wasn't about wins once he saw what he was dealing with. It was about teaching moments and letting guys know what will and won't be accepted even if it meant sacrificing a few wins. To me that's being a good coach, and that's how you build a program. You first need to get your guys to buy in, and if not, show them the door and bring in guys that will.

 

[BruinVol]

You don't even account the fact that they lost their NBA guard and heart of the team.

I don't even see how you can say the talent was a wash preseason because it was a less talented team than last year's no matter how you spin it, based on losing Richardson alone.

Then you continue to say the talent was a wash postseason which is asinine when you factor in transfers and guys that didn't quite pan out as expected (i.e. kasongo).

Whether you want to admit it or not losing Punter may have cost the Vols at least two games, which apparently is the difference in Barnes and Tyndall on the grading scale.

Also, I think Barnes may have intentionally not cared about winning a few games this year just to send a message to his team, especially to guys like Hubbs and Mostella, which you constantly ragged Barnes for but it seemed to have worked come tournament time.

In my opinion, this year for Barnes wasn't about wins once he saw what he was dealing with. It was about teaching moments and letting guys know what will and won't be accepted even if it meant sacrificing a few wins. To me that's being a good coach, and that's how you build a program. You first need to get your guys to buy in, and if not, show them the door and bring in guys that will.

No doubt losing punter might have cost us the 2 home games vs Arkansas and ole miss.


Had we not beaten lsu, vandy, and auburn without him that thinking would have been much stronger


I agree Barnes lost some games to try and prove a point. Time will tell if that pays off

 

[vol66]

No doubt losing punter might have cost us the 2 home games vs Arkansas and ole miss.


Had we not beaten lsu, vandy, and auburn without him that thinking would have been much stronger


I agree Barnes lost some games to try and prove a point. Time will tell if that pays off

Two of those coaches should be fired for their underachievement this year. On Talent alone we should have gotten run out of the gym by Vandy and LSU. Auburn had already quit, we beat them by almost 40 points.

Any SEC team with a little fight could have taken us during that stretch and they did. I agree that the players win and the coaches lose, but other than heart there wasn't lots left to coach and Barnes and Punter maximized what was left on that and that alone.

When you're talking about +/- minus two games and you throw Punter and Hubbs out of the mix, it's unreasonable to have pre-season expectations imo and I'd remind you and others that those expectations were bottom of the league to begin with.

 

[BruinVol]

Two of those coaches should be fired for their underachievement this year. On Talent alone we should have gotten run out of the gym by Vandy and LSU. Auburn had already quit, we beat them by almost 40 points.

Any SEC team with a little fight could have taken us during that stretch and they did. I agree that the players win and the coaches lose, but other than heart there wasn't lots left to coach and Barnes and Punter maximized what was left on that and that alone.

When you're talking about +/- minus two games and you throw Punter and Hubbs out of the mix, it's unreasonable to have pre-season expectations imo and I'd remind you and others that those expectations were bottom of the league to begin with.

I could agree until you got to hubbs.

Barnes mishandled him greatly this year and it cost us games without question IMO.

 

[butchna]

I could agree until you got to hubbs.

Barnes mishandled him greatly this year and it cost us games without question IMO.

I question that. It's easy to second guess without responsibility.