Russia brings the fight to ISIS in Syria!!!

#851
#851
FLVOL_79 said:
Man that was crazy. Gotta wonder how many people were just sitting in that helicopter when it got tagged.

Nothing like seeing people destroying a search and rescue helicopter..good job politicians in the US..
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You should ask me if I will lose any sleep over a Russian helicopter getting blown up. Either against Assad or Putin, makes no difference to me. Good job US politicians indeed.

:)
 
#852
#852
I want to lay out some personal opinions at the moment while facts are still coming out.

To start I believe that Turkey probably done screwed the pooch on this and should solely face Russian wrath for this. That does not include war, that being said I don't the NATO should be involved if it comes to war between Russia and Turkey. Turkey started it. again hopefully we stay the eff out of it.

1. Everything I have read all pretty much agrees that the Russian plane flew over Turkey on this mission. Turkey has made it very clear it won't tolerate this, which is its right. I don't think there is anything debatable in this point, but feel free to comment.
2. A couple options of how the scenario happened, all imo, and none of them are clean. All of them are based on my first point.
a) Turkish plane was shadowing Russian plane as it skirts the border. Once it crosses over Turkey the Turkish plane warns him, the warning part seems to be an agreed upon point, then shoots him while over Turkey. Plane falls inside Syria. IF, if if, this is the case this is the best case scenario for Turkey. however I see it as very unlikely simply due to the speeds they were likely flying. seems extreme that there was enough time to warn the Russian and then engage him over that little piece of Turkish land.
b) Turkish plane is shadowing Russian plane as it skirts the border. Once it crosses Turkish plane warns the Russian and engages while Russian plane over Syria. Seems more likely again due to speeds. In this case Turkey has some serious ass explaining to do and should face heavy penalties. But not war, Russian plane violated their territory on a "hot" mission.
c) about as unlikely, maybe a little more than a. Turkish plane is shadowing but warns and engages a Russian plane that never crosses the border. Warned and shot him before he got to the border. However where the plane comes down in Syria says to me it was unlikely that it happened before Turkish airspace. The flip side is also possible. Engaged after it had cleared Turkish airspace back into Syria. In this case Turkey can't explain things away and faces heavy penalties. this is obviously the worst situation for Turkey, and world peace.
these are the three scenarios which came to my mind. feel free to comment here.
3. I am willing to bet Syria and Turkey have some sort of understanding about airspace violation by either party on the other. especially with a war going on. It probably includes a buffer zone of some sort. If this does exist, and it seems like it should, I have no idea how Russia fits into this. Turkey had made it very clear that Turkey was a no fly zone for the Russians. If Russia didn't have some level of understanding with Turkey, they share some blame here, they violated Turkish airspace. If there was an agreement and Turkey violated that they carry all the blame. and there is plenty of middle ground where both sides are responsible with most of it falling on Turkey.
4. Unless the issue of air violations was brought before NATO before this instance by Turkey they can't make an Article 5 argument. If this is the first time it was brought before NATO, Turkey is the aggressor and can't call up the defensive alliance. If Turkey had brought up the issue of Russian planes being a reason to call in Article 5 before then Turkey could very well call up NATO. However I don't think this is the case. Turkey has said it won't tolerate these "incursions" and has talked to various parties, including Russia; but I don't know if it has been a formal motion brought to NATO. I forget which Article it is but each member state can call a vote/ruling, on if an instance falls under "defense" and it isn't clear cut. which in this case Turkey can't say this was clear cut defense against an act of aggression. So unless they called a committee before hand they are SOL, imo, on the NATO front.
5. How all parties treat this will tell a lot about the situation imo. too many options to list them all. if everyone steps down this is hopefully a one off situation that doesn't go anywhere. If one side pushes an issue its got an agenda. I think the most honest response would be for this to go in front of the UN. With this being Russia it can't be swept under the rug and Turkey will pay. However if Russia goes straight to war or keeps "buzzing" Turkish airspace they are pushing for a conflict and not a resolution to the matter.
 
#853
#853
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH1Mhp_ANvI[/youtube]


:post-4-1090547912:
 
#854
#854
Russian media, nearly always a parody of a parody (which I can't tell if that makes it really smart or really dumb), is in full anti-Turkey mode right now.

Ignoring available evidence at the moment and ignoring a demonstrated history of repeated Russian incursions into Turkish airspace in just the two months of its Syrian air campaign, one commentator I've seen has even gone so far as to suggest that this was an intentional plot that Erdogan cooked up, stationing a F-16 right there on the border to already be flying around so it could shoot down any Russian planes that came close by. This was a Foreign Affairs editor.

That really is precious analysis.
 
#855
#855
LouderVol said:
I want to lay out some personal opinions at the moment while facts are still coming out.

To start I believe that Turkey probably done screwed the pooch on this and should solely face Russian wrath for this. That does not include war, that being said I don't the NATO should be involved if it comes to war between Russia and Turkey. Turkey started it. again hopefully we stay the eff out of it.
Click to expand...

If what we know at the moment is indeed accurate, I can't blame Turkey for its actions. Whether or not the decision to down the plane was smart is another question. Russian planes and drones have violated Turkish airspace repeatedly during this campaign. I'm not sure exactly what Russia's motives are, other than perhaps showing a powerful display as a warning to Turkey regarding its funding of the opposition and some jihadist elements in Syria, but I'm also not sure why anyone, including Russia, should expect Turkey to just keep repeatedly allowing the incursions as well.

At the moment, it appears to me that Russia flew too close to the sun. Now, if sufficient counter-evidence comes out (this does not include unverified, trumped-up Russian media narratives), then I'll change that assessment. It most likely was not a smart move by Turkey, but one also wonders how smart it is to continually allow Russia to make you look like some passive pushover.

I doubt much comes of this anyhow. The only grave consequence I can realistically perceive is that this now sets all sides on even more edge, making them more likely to do something irrational and too quick in the future. But, then again, it could make them more cautious since they may realize the gravity of the situation more.
 
#857
#857
LouderVol said:
I want to lay out some personal opinions at the moment while facts are still coming out.

To start I believe that Turkey probably done screwed the pooch on this and should solely face Russian wrath for this. That does not include war, that being said I don't the NATO should be involved if it comes to war between Russia and Turkey. Turkey started it. again hopefully we stay the eff out of it.

1. Everything I have read all pretty much agrees that the Russian plane flew over Turkey on this mission. Turkey has made it very clear it won't tolerate this, which is its right. I don't think there is anything debatable in this point, but feel free to comment.
2. A couple options of how the scenario happened, all imo, and none of them are clean. All of them are based on my first point.
a) Turkish plane was shadowing Russian plane as it skirts the border. Once it crosses over Turkey the Turkish plane warns him, the warning part seems to be an agreed upon point, then shoots him while over Turkey. Plane falls inside Syria. IF, if if, this is the case this is the best case scenario for Turkey. however I see it as very unlikely simply due to the speeds they were likely flying. seems extreme that there was enough time to warn the Russian and then engage him over that little piece of Turkish land.
b) Turkish plane is shadowing Russian plane as it skirts the border. Once it crosses Turkish plane warns the Russian and engages while Russian plane over Syria. Seems more likely again due to speeds. In this case Turkey has some serious ass explaining to do and should face heavy penalties. But not war, Russian plane violated their territory on a "hot" mission.
c) about as unlikely, maybe a little more than a. Turkish plane is shadowing but warns and engages a Russian plane that never crosses the border. Warned and shot him before he got to the border. However where the plane comes down in Syria says to me it was unlikely that it happened before Turkish airspace. The flip side is also possible. Engaged after it had cleared Turkish airspace back into Syria. In this case Turkey can't explain things away and faces heavy penalties. this is obviously the worst situation for Turkey, and world peace.
these are the three scenarios which came to my mind. feel free to comment here.
3. I am willing to bet Syria and Turkey have some sort of understanding about airspace violation by either party on the other. especially with a war going on. It probably includes a buffer zone of some sort. If this does exist, and it seems like it should, I have no idea how Russia fits into this. Turkey had made it very clear that Turkey was a no fly zone for the Russians. If Russia didn't have some level of understanding with Turkey, they share some blame here, they violated Turkish airspace. If there was an agreement and Turkey violated that they carry all the blame. and there is plenty of middle ground where both sides are responsible with most of it falling on Turkey.
4. Unless the issue of air violations was brought before NATO before this instance by Turkey they can't make an Article 5 argument. If this is the first time it was brought before NATO, Turkey is the aggressor and can't call up the defensive alliance. If Turkey had brought up the issue of Russian planes being a reason to call in Article 5 before then Turkey could very well call up NATO. However I don't think this is the case. Turkey has said it won't tolerate these "incursions" and has talked to various parties, including Russia; but I don't know if it has been a formal motion brought to NATO. I forget which Article it is but each member state can call a vote/ruling, on if an instance falls under "defense" and it isn't clear cut. which in this case Turkey can't say this was clear cut defense against an act of aggression. So unless they called a committee before hand they are SOL, imo, on the NATO front.
5. How all parties treat this will tell a lot about the situation imo. too many options to list them all. if everyone steps down this is hopefully a one off situation that doesn't go anywhere. If one side pushes an issue its got an agenda. I think the most honest response would be for this to go in front of the UN. With this being Russia it can't be swept under the rug and Turkey will pay. However if Russia goes straight to war or keeps "buzzing" Turkish airspace they are pushing for a conflict and not a resolution to the matter.
Click to expand...

Just like in any event that involves Russia, all immediate reports are contradicting. Both sides point the finger. Its premature to speculate who was at fault, but it's garaunteed that Russia will be made out to be at fault regardless. This is a certainty and it's what MSM is already running with without getting the whole story...again.

The odd part of this is the Turkish govt immediately initiated a NATO meeting without getting in touch with the Kremlin. Why?

Anyway, this is what happens when a coalition of countries refuses to work together with the Russians. The only explanation is they have different motives. It's just sad we are on the side we are...
 
#858
#858
Pacer92 said:
Just like in any event that involves Russia, all immediate reports are contradicting. Both sides point the finger. Its premature to speculate who was at fault, but it's garaunteed that Russia will be made out to be at fault regardless. This is a certainty and it's what MSM is already running with without getting the whole story...again.

The odd part of this is the Turkish govt immediately initiated a NATO meeting without getting in touch with the Kremlin. Why?

Anyway, this is what happens when a coalition of countries refuses to work together with the Russians. The only explanation is they have different motives. It's just sad we are on the side we are...
Click to expand...

source?

and when you break the neighbors window, do you immediately go to the neighbor or go to mom and dad? and its probably a lot easier process to get in touch with your friends than your enemies. Only so many numbers on speed dial I guess. :)
 
#862
#862
Pacer92 said:
#Russia suspends all military contacts with #Turkey, 'From here on, we'll only contact them with missiles' https://t.co/o9nygwXfzs
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Shoigu's Hero of the Russian Federation medal there is about as baffling as Obama's Nobel Peace Prize.

He needs to simmer down and just stick to standing upright in that 1990s model Mercedes-rip off they drive him around in for their Victory Day parades.
 
#863
#863
CNN reporting that a Russian marine killed while trying to rescue the pilot from the downed jet. Does not say how.

Hope there wasn't an actual skirmish and shooting back and forth. That could escalate quickly.
 
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#864
#864
Lmao!
https://mobile.twitter.com/Sputnik_Intl/status/669192316465344513

CUlyLLuWcAEJ_EG.png
 
#865
#865
TOP said:
Can we get Putin in an as president with thunderf00t in as vice president? I hope Russia continues plowing through and doing as they please. F our spineless coward of a "leader". Go play another 18 holes, this isn't your fight. We know, we know you're a coward. Russia is far from the problem. In fact, I'd go as far as saying they're the solution.
Click to expand...

NAk6C_2.gif


Brilliant analysis.
 
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#866
#866
The "It's all America's fault, everything!" 24 hours news channel is currently speculating about whether or not this downing was part of an intentional plot by the US to create further fissures between Russia and Europe, since the two had purportedly been warming back up to one another with the Ukraine crisis ostensibly on the mend.

I'd really love to know who this video game master is deep in the CIA that sits around monitoring the entire world at one time, pushing the proper "coup," "false flag," "distraction," "Turkish F-16 shootdown Russian aircraft" buttons when they need to be pushed. Whoever he or she is, they need to be the highest paid person in this entire nation and need to be awarded "Video Gamer of the Millennium" by every major gaming publication.
 
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#867
#867
Providing yet another piece of evidence that President Barack Obama is shielding the Islamic State group from destruction by American forces, the chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee told the Washington Free Beacon that U.S. military pilots have confirmed 75 percent of missions against the group have returned with their ordnance because they couldn’t get clearance to fire.

Read more: U.S. Military Pilots Provide Solid Proof That Obama Is Helping ISIS... Here's What They're Saying
 
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#868
#868
Obsessed said:
Providing yet another piece of evidence that President Barack Obama is shielding the Islamic State group from destruction by American forces, the chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee told the Washington Free Beacon that U.S. military pilots have confirmed 75 percent of missions against the group have returned with their ordnance because they couldn’t get clearance to fire.

Read more: U.S. Military Pilots Provide Solid Proof That Obama Is Helping ISIS... Here's What They're Saying
Click to expand...
If this is true, the military needs to uphold their oathes and take him into custody immediately.
 
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#869
#869
Obsessed said:
Providing yet another piece of evidence that President Barack Obama is shielding the Islamic State group from destruction by American forces, the chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee told the Washington Free Beacon that U.S. military pilots have confirmed 75 percent of missions against the group have returned with their ordnance because they couldn’t get clearance to fire.

Read more: U.S. Military Pilots Provide Solid Proof That Obama Is Helping ISIS... Here's What They're Saying
Click to expand...

You have quite a way with words, friend. That's not what those men are claiming at all. They're not claiming he's intentionally shielding the Islamic State, as you suggest. They're simply being critical of his cautious approach.

For better or for worse, the US is not Russia, and Obama is not Putin. Whatever you think about him, Obama will not have 400 American grandmothers blown up while watching "Jeopardy" simply to achieve a political aim, nor will America level an entire city district simply to hit one or two targets.

Now, if you think we should, that's fine. And certainly there can be many flaws in being overly cautious, as it appears Obama may be. But let's not confuse the situation any more than it already is.
 
#871
#871
That article and its reference to the French "gittin' er' dun!" with a few recent airstrikes at the end reminded me of the fact that there's nothing quite like dropping a few bombs on some terrorists to make American conservatives think a French socialist a somehow more desirable leader than Obama.
 
#872
#872
This morning I saw a ridiculous sputnik tweet claiming that Russian fighter that got shot down was "stolen." Is that story still operative?
 
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