Ryan Braun

#102
#102
zjcvols said:
Dude put up a .619 OBP...think about that.
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That's because he started wearing body armor all over his arm and standing right on top of the plate. Pitchers literally had nowhere to go with the ball. You either walked him or threw it right in his wheelhouse. I don't understand why NL pitchers didn't revolt en masse and start putting him in the dirt twice a game until he took off the sissy arm protection and stood in there like a man. And once they didn't, I don't understand why every other hitter in MLB didn't immediately do the same thing. The body armor was as big a factor in Bonds's late-30s success as the juice.
 
#103
#103
RReally dude? An elbow pad made him get on base 61% of the effing time?

Had nothing to do with him being one of the best ever and being able to utterly destroy the baseball.
 
#104
#104
I don't know if you're old enough to have watched Bonds's whole career, but go check out some pictures of where he started standing once he started wearing the body armor. Once he's standing on top of the plate, you can't go inside anymore because all you can do is hit him. And you can't hit the outside corner anymore because now it's right in his wheelhouse. Which is why he suddenly started walking 200 times a year at age 36.

Bonds was a great player, a first-ballot Hall of Famer, one of the top 10-15 players of all time. Then steroids made him superhuman. Now take that superhuman player and let him stand fearlessly right on top of the plate and it's basically impossible to get him out. The old saying in baseball was to get God out, you throw him up and in and then low and away. The body armor made that impossible in Bonds's case.
 
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#105
#105
Barry Bonds with his walks could've not gotten a HIT In 2004 and still had a higher obp than juan Pierre, who led the nl in hits.
 
#106
#106
It also didn't hurt that he flat out refused to chase. He had as good an idea about the strike zone as anybody.
 
#107
#107
Vercingetorix said:
I don't know if you're old enough to have watched Bonds's whole career, but go check out some pictures of where he started standing once he started wearing the body armor. Once he's standing on top of the plate, you can't go inside anymore because all you can do is hit him. And you can't hit the outside corner anymore because now it's right in his wheelhouse. Which is why he suddenly started walking 200 times a year at age 36.

Bonds was a great player, a first-ballot Hall of Famer, one of the top 10-15 players of all time. Then steroids made him superhuman. Now take that superhuman player and let him stand fearlessly right on top of the plate and it's basically impossible to get him out. The old saying in baseball was to get God out, you throw him up and in and then low and away. The body armor made that impossible in Bonds's case.
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I get what you're saying and all, but he got walked because he was the best hitter in the damn game. Sure, he was all over the plate. But he got walked because he was going to launch a ball over the fence.

Might as well hit him. 1 pitch takes a lot less time than 4. Cause nobody wanted to throw to him, at all. And not cause he had a flipping elbow pad on.
 
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#108
#108
Dbake005 said:
I get what you're saying and all, but he got walked because he was the best hitter in the damn game. Sure, he was all over the plate. But he got walked because he was going to launch a ball over the fence.

Might as well hit him. 1 pitch takes a lot less time than 4. Cause nobody wanted to throw to him, at all. And not cause he had a flipping elbow pad on.

And I guess top 3 is included in
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Do you understand how standing right up on top of the plate gives a hitter much better coverage of the outside corner? Do you see how having his entire vulnerable arm encased in hard protective plastic would enhance a hitter's ability to crowd the plate, thus gaining better coverage of the strike zone?

I'm not arguing that Bonds wasn't a great, great hitter with a superior command of the strike zone for his whole career. But his OBPs jumped a hundred points in his late thirties, right after his switch to the final, largest version of his elbow protection. It wasn't a coincidence.
 
#109
#109
Yeah, both played a role. It's no coincidence that it followed three straight MVP years, either.

He's the only guy that would've been able to see ONE pitch all night, hit that one pitch out of the park, and go about his 3 intentional walk business in the other at bats. He was superior. And good at being superior. If others could've done what he was doing... they would've tried to. They couldn't.
 
#110
#110
Dbake005 said:
Yeah, both played a role. It's no coincidence that it followed three straight MVP years, either.

He's the only guy that would've been able to see ONE pitch all night, hit that one pitch out of the park, and go about his 3 intentional walk business in the other at bats. He was superior. And good at being superior. If others could've done what he was doing... they would've tried to. They couldn't.
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Bonds's jump from great player to superhuman happened in 2001 at age 36. That's the year he won his first of four straight MVPs. That's also the year he switched to his final elbow armor.

It really was kind of a perfect storm. Take one of the all-time great hitters to begin with, pump him full of PEDs until his head was ready to explode, and then let him stand fearlessly on top of the plate so you can't pitch to him. We'll never see anything like that again. One can only imagine what he'd been like if he hadn't waited until his late 30s to roid up and armor up.
 
#111
#111
Mark Prior is the only one that stood up to him. Bonds armor and covering the entire inside of the plate definitely is the biggest factor in him getting all the walks. Yeah, he had the ability to hit balls from San Fran to Oaktown, but if MLB or pitchers would have forced him off the plate so they could work the inside of the plate too, his numbers would go way down. I disagree with Verci on a regular basis, but he's right on this one.
 
#112
#112
I definitely get what y'all are saying. I understand. It definitely wasn't ALL one thing. Armor and hanging all over the plate played a role, as did being one of the best hitters of all time. Skill played a role in making pitchersis and managers scared like hell of him, and his being on the plate made it impossible to go right after him.
 
#113
#113
As stated before, it was the perfect storm. A lot of credit goes to his plate discipline and his 'i am going to hit a home run, or you're gonna walk me.' approach.
 
#114
#114
Grow a pair and put it between the 2 and the 5 or dont complain about his elbow pad. You ever taken 90s off the elbow? Hurts like hell. I woulda worn one too if I had it.

Blame the pitchers. Bonds elbow pad didn't keep him from getting hit.
 
#115
#115
TBrown said:
Grow a pair and put it between the 2 and the 5 or dont complain about his elbow pad. You ever taken 90s off the elbow? Hurts like hell. I woulda worn one too if I had it.

Blame the pitchers. Bonds elbow pad didn't keep him from getting hit.
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There's a huge difference between an elbow pad and a piece of body armor covering almost your whole arm. It would have shattered the plastic before it hurt him.
 
#116
#116
volfanbill said:
There's a huge difference between an elbow pad and a piece of body armor covering almost your whole arm. It would have shattered the plastic before it hurt him.
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Like I said, hit him between the 2 and the 5 or throw it behind his head. His elbow had a pad on it. He didnt wear full out knight's armor and he didn't wear anything no one else couldn't have. Pathetic excuse for him having a .619 OBP. Pitchers didn't get inside because he had an unbelievable ability to stand on top of the plate and still keep the ball fair down the RF line when he turned on it.
 
#117
#117
TBrown said:
Like I said, hit him between the 2 and the 5 or throw it behind his head. His elbow had a pad on it. He didnt wear full out knight's armor and he didn't wear anything no one else couldn't have. Pathetic excuse for him having a .619 OBP. Pitchers didn't get inside because he had an unbelievable ability to stand on top of the plate and still keep the ball fair down the RF line when he turned on it.
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Of course he had a great ability to turn on the inside pitch. But that's the point -- inside is supposed to be actually inside. But if you can stand right up on top of the plate because your natural fear has been greatly reduced because your whole inside arm has been encased in a football helmet, then a pitch right over the plate is now an inside pitch, and a pitch low and away is now effectively right down the middle. I've seen a lot of great hitters hit in my life, some of whom could turn on the inside pitch as well as Bonds, but all the rest of them still had to reach for the outside pitch. Bonds didn't. Because of the body armor.

As far as whether other players could do the same thing -- he had apparently been grandfathered into being allowed to wear an especially large pad system that other players weren't and aren't today. (I say "system" because it was a two-part pad with an actual tongue-and-groove-like hinge on it -- which, if you think about it, would be like swinging a bat with a guide helping you every time. Presumably that would help keep your swing consistent, no? But 99 percent of the benefit had to be making it easier to crowd the plate and essentially emasculating the pitcher.)

I remember hitting pause on a Bonds at-bat during a Sunday night game in 2002 or so and having a roomful of guys discuss the fact that Bonds's elbow was five or six inches out over the plate while the pitcher was in his windup. There was literally nowhere to go with the ball. You had to either throw at him, throw it way way outside, or try to throw it by him and hope he didn't hit it out. I'm kind of surprised he made as many outs as he did.

The pitchers didn't complain about it at the time, at least in public. They didn't throw at him. I have no idea why. It's a damn shame Bob Gibson and Don Drysdale were both dead; I'd have loved to hear their comments about both the elbow pad and the pitchers' failure to do anything about it.
 
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#118
#118
Vercingetorix said:
Of course he had a great ability to turn on the inside pitch. But that's the point -- inside is supposed to be actually inside. But if you can stand right up on top of the plate because your natural fear has been greatly reduced because your whole inside arm has been encased in a football helmet, then a pitch right over the plate is now an inside pitch, and a pitch low and away is now effectively right down the middle. I've seen a lot of great hitters hit in my life, some of whom could turn on the inside pitch as well as Bonds, but all the rest of them still had to reach for the outside pitch. Bonds didn't. Because of the body armor.

As far as whether other players could do the same thing -- he had apparently been grandfathered into being allowed to wear an especially large pad system that other players weren't and aren't today. (I say "system" because it was a two-part pad with an actual tongue-and-groove-like hinge on it -- which, if you think about it, would be like swinging a bat with a guide helping you every time. Presumably that would help keep your swing consistent, no? But 99 percent of the benefit had to be making it easier to crowd the plate and essentially emasculating the pitcher.)

I remember hitting pause on a Bonds at-bat during a Sunday night game in 2002 or so and having a roomful of guys discuss the fact that Bonds's elbow was five or six inches out over the plate while the pitcher was in his windup. There was literally nowhere to go with the ball. You had to either throw at him, throw it way way outside, or try to throw it by him and hope he didn't hit it out. I'm kind of surprised he made as many outs as he did.

The pitchers didn't complain about it at the time, at least in public. They didn't throw at him. I have no idea why. It's a damn shame Bob Gibson and Don Drysdale were both dead; I'd have loved to hear their comments about both the elbow pad and the pitchers' failure to do anything about it.
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Bob Gibson isn't dead actually. Wrote a book with Reggie Jackson (can't remember the name) where he talks about this and how he would have destroyed Bonds.

Edit: Book was called "Sixty Feet, Six Inches." Good read btw
 
#119
#119
zjcvols said:
Bob Gibson isn't dead actually. Wrote a book with Reggie Jackson (can't remember the name) where he talks about this and how he would have destroyed Bonds.

Edit: Book was called "Sixty Feet, Six Inches." Good read btw
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My mistake. Then it took me about 30 seconds to find this Gibson quote about Bonds: "I think I could break some of that armor."
 
#120
#120
Bob Gibson is still very much alive. Speaking of players that changed the game, it's because of Gibson that the pitching mound was lowered from 15" to 10" and reduced the top of the strike zone from the hitter's arm pits to the jersey letters or there abouts in 1969. This all following his remarkable year in 1968.

- 1.12 ERA
- 22-9 (which includes losing five 1-0 games)
- 268K
- A 47-scoreless-inning stretch
- 300+ innings pitched
- 13 shutouts & 28 complete games (34 started)
- .184 batting average against and .233 OBP against

Would the confident and capable Bonds stand on the plate against Gibson? Probably. After the first pitch his helmet would need to be replaced, though.
 
#121
#121
Vercingetorix said:
Do you understand how standing right up on top of the plate gives a hitter much better coverage of the outside corner? Do you see how having his entire vulnerable arm encased in hard protective plastic would enhance a hitter's ability to crowd the plate, thus gaining better coverage of the strike zone?

I'm not arguing that Bonds wasn't a great, great hitter with a superior command of the strike zone for his whole career. But his OBPs jumped a hundred points in his late thirties, right after his switch to the final, largest version of his elbow protection. It wasn't a coincidence.
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Bonds was a great inside pitch hitter even during this period.
 
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