Scramble for Africa 2.0

#26
#26
KB5252 said:
I would argue it's how it universally done, we just have money to throw around because of the value of the American dollar. Other countries have resources they trade through deals for wants/needs. Our dollar had been the very reason we've maintained our standing. Take that away and we could damn near crumble.

Just my take on it.
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Perhaps we are using similar terms but are defining those differently. If you are using the terms as trade arrangements, I completely agree. It is how it is universally done. Goods and commodities traded between nations improve all nations participating.
I am using these terms to describe financial and military gifting to a country for some ill-conceived political goal. I do not agree this approach is universally done. If fact, there are nations which have grown tremendously in prosperity without any "investment" of money or military into other countries. With that said, this approach is uniquely American. We have an identity as a country which presumes our help is needed, required, and our responsibility. I believe it is in America's long term interests to alter that identity.
 
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#27
#27
McDad said:
None of us are experts. We're a cackling cacophony of kooks, at best.

Here's where I think your position can be proven false: What is it we want/need from the rest of the world? Do other countries make investments and grease wheels to get those things from the world, too? In other words, is this the American approach or is this how it is universally done?
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I beg to differ. The media has set that bar pretty low. I think back to Don Lemon on CNN talking about a missing plane potentially going through a black hole with a panel of "experts".
 
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#28
#28
McDad said:
Perhaps we are using similar terms but are defining those differently. If you are using the terms as trade arrangements, I completely agree. It is how it is universally done. Goods and commodities traded between nations improve all nations participating.
I am using these terms to describe financial and military gifting to a country for some ill-conceived political goal. I do not agree this approach is universally done. If fact, there are nations which have grown tremendously in prosperity without any "investment" of money or military into other countries. With that said, this approach is uniquely American. We have an identity as a country which presumes our help is needed, required, and our responsibility. I believe it is in America's long term interests to alter that identity.
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I think we are sure going to have to. It obvious to me the world wants to move on from the dollar, I think we are doing all we can to keep that from happening. When it does we will have to do something different.

But there will have to be a great correction of course in this country first, very likely a violent one. People aren't going to like it when the government can't support them anymore.
 
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#31
#31
KB5252 said:
We won't have the luxury of printing our own dollars and maintaining this standard of living if we adopt an isolationist stance. It's a global economy investments are made everywhere.
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Ypu people and your screaming of isolationism anytime someone mentions having a country fix their own problems. Just dumb. What has been our return in past global investments? I'd say burning money would have a better return.
 
#32
#32
KB5252 said:
I think we are sure going to have to. It obvious to me the world wants to move on from the dollar, I think we are doing all we can to keep that from happening. When it does we will have to do something different.

But there will have to be a great correction of course in this country first, very likely a violent one. People aren't going to like it when the government can't support them anymore.
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It is criminal what we (collectively) have done to America and its place in the world since WW2.

We really could have been an example of independence, justice, and opportunity to the world for millennia.
 
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#33
#33
happy-go_vol said:
Ypu people and your screaming of isolationism anytime someone mentions having a country fix their own problems. Just dumb. What has been our return in past global investments? I'd say burning money would have a better return.
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Who is screaming? I'm having a discussion on a message board.

The return on our investment has been our artificial standard of living, spreading the wealth around. After all we've accumulated our wealth by simply having the standard in currency of trade which inflates our dollar and gives it more spending power.

Now if you want to have discussions about being more judicious in our investments and gifting that's a legitimate debate.

If we were to take a more isolationist stance then the dollar would inevitably be dropped and our standard of living immediately tanks with it. Think inflation is bad now? It could and would be so much worse.
 
#35
#35
LouderVol said:
Throw China in that list and you have yourself a deal.

The issue is once one power moves in, they all want to move in.
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Once one country moves in, the rest almost have to. Simple example is the move to EVs. That takes mineral resources scattered around the globe. Nobody can afford to let China monopolize African mineral resources. Another is trade and shipping - look at the Suez canal, and guess where China is building a military base.

There's a big push to force the military into electric vehicles - how you charge them on the battlefield is an interesting proposition, but that's another issue. At least a person or two in congress is trying to pass a bill to insure that the military EVs are not dependent on Chinese sourced components like batteries, most EV batteries are sourced from China, and China is buying up the resources or the mining operations around the globe - including Africa. That's the point, if China moves in on strategic resources in a location like Africa, then that forces everyone else to do the same.
 
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#36
#36
AM64 said:
Once one country moves in, the rest almost have to. Simple example is the move to EVs. That takes mineral resources scattered around the globe. Nobody can afford to let China monopolize African mineral resources. Another is trade and shipping - look at the Suez canal, and guess where China is building a military base.
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Right next to the US base in Djibouti?
 
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#37
#37
Well, maybe hooray for the Ruskies and Chinmen. The USA, England, Belgium, and other Westerner have bee raping and destabilizing Africa for better than a century. Guess it's the Reds turn despite the hue and cry from the origin rapists. A case of monkey see, monkey do, I suppose.
 
#38
#38
C-south said:
It’s like an entire continent that has never contributed a thing to modern society and has sold EVERY resource they own with nothing to show for it.
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Never contributed a thing to modern society? Oh come on.
 
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#42
#42
Rasputin_Vol said:
What do you mean?
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What is our purpose there and what is the Chinese purpose there. Who is doing anything to bring order to the region - like the pirates operating off that coast of Africa? What do you think would happen to commerce transiting the Suez Canal without our presence in the region. I know "not our problem", but it is. You still fail to comprehend that our peers are Russia and China - not Germany or Egypt or Japan - really not even the EU if they merged with NATO as both and economic and military force.
 
#43
#43
AM64 said:
What is our purpose there and what is the Chinese purpose there. Who is doing anything to bring order to the region - like the pirates operating off that coast of Africa?
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Their aims are no different than those of Western countries. The Western countries have had a history of regime change, propping up dictators, robbing of resources and pushing windmills/solar energy projects. At least the Chinese are building major infrastructure projects and the Russians are pushing out the colonizers. China has only been there in a heavy way for a decade or so and Russia is just now getting their toes in the water. At least let them overthrow a few countries or kill a few hundred thousand before we paint them with the same broad brush. The Chinese and Russians are 2 centuries behind the others.

AM64 said:
What do you think would happen to commerce transiting the Suez Canal without our presence in the region. I know "not our problem", but it is. You still fail to comprehend that our peers are Russia and China - not Germany or Egypt or Japan - really not even the EU if they merged with NATO as both and economic and military force.
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If the US left, do you think China (the world's largest importer and exporter) or OPEC states would have no incentive to fill that gap somehow? Unlike us in the West, these guys still want to make money and maintain an economy.
 
#44
#44
AM64 said:
I suppose that you would ignore history and view the US and not China as the likely force to block the Suez.
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I was thinking you were implying that China at some time in history had blocked the canal. That is how I read this.
 
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#45
#45
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm was thinking you were implying that China at some time in history had blocked the canal. That is how I read this.
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No, but I do see a Chinese base near the Suez Canal, a Chinese operated Panama Canal, and Chinese occupation of several islands in the S China Sea shipping lanes as troubling. Those are all strategic locations, and you have to believe that with the long term Chinese thinking/strategy that there is a reason - for China.
 
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#46
#46
AM64 said:
No, but I do see a Chinese base near the Suez Canal, a Chinese operated Panama Canal, and Chinese occupation of several islands in the S China Sea shipping lanes as troubling. Those are all strategic locations, and you have to believe that with the long term Chinese thinking/strategy that there is a reason - for China.
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And again, answer me this: Why would the world's largest importer and exporter want to have bottlenecks in these major shipping lanes?

In my mind, they are located in these areas to counter any potential sanctions or embargoes by the US. They see how wild and giddy we get over sanctions, so that gives them every incentive to be strategic placed in these areas.
 
#47
#47
Rasputin_Vol said:
And again, answer me this: Why would the world's largest importer and exporter want to have bottlenecks in these major shipping lanes?

In my mind, they are located in these areas to counter any potential sanctions or embargoes by the US. They see how wild and giddy we get over sanctions, so that gives them every incentive to be strategic placed in these areas.
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And in my mind control of strategic shipping lanes enables the Chinese to see to it that they are the world's largest importer/exporter and shipper. You don't trust your own country for whatever reason; I sure as hell don't trust China.
 
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#48
#48
AM64 said:
And in my mind control of strategic shipping lanes enables the Chinese to see to it that they are the world's largest importer/exporter and shipper.
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Projection. China hasn't shown any intent or even made any threats of monopolizing the sea routes or weaponizing them in the same way the US and British have historically. No different than the projection about Russia weaponizing energy on Europe when we sit here in December 2022 with the US being the ones that are weaponizing energy.

AM64 said:
You don't trust your own country for whatever reason; I sure as hell don't trust China.
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For whatever reason? Are you a student of history?
 
#49
#49
Rasputin_Vol said:
Projection. China hasn't shown any intent or even made any threats of monopolizing the sea routes or weaponizing them in the same way the US and British have historically. No different than the projection about Russia weaponizing energy on Europe when we sit here in December 2022 with the US being the ones that are weaponizing energy.


For whatever reason? Are you a student of history?
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Yes, but there's a lot of history and little time to gather it all in. I don't look for causes; if a period is interesting, I read. History is one of those things that can be one thing or another depending on who writes it. It's like you want to see the bad in some countries including your own and the good in others. I try to take the good with the bad - that no country is perfect, and some at least attempt to get it right more than others. We are of different generations, and we see the past differently based on our experiences.
 
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#50
#50
AM64 said:
Yes, but there's a lot of history and little time to gather it all in. I don't look for causes; if a period is interesting, I read. History is one of those things that can be one thing or another depending on who writes it. It's like you want to see the bad in some countries including your own and the good in others. I try to take the good with the bad - that no country is perfect, and some at least attempt to get it right more than others. We are of different generations, and we see the past differently based on our experiences.
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I have every reason to look at recent history and look at the people calling the shots over here to know that we have some nefarious people running the show. We have no recent examples of Russia or China coming anywhere close to what the British, Belgians or French have done as colonizers and no recent history of a Patrice Lumumba or Kwame Nkrumah overthrow that the US pulled.

Again, until we see that type of nonsense, the US and western colonizers have zero morale high ground to stand on when it comes to how Russia and China behaves in Africa.
 
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