Scramble for Africa 2.0

#51
#51
AM64 said:
We are of different generations, and we see the past differently based on our experiences.
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I'm a realist and you are a pollyanna idealistic view of American foreign policy. I guess in your mind, you think that we are out here saving the world... meanwhile, you ignore the Dulles Brothers, Zbignew Brzezinski and a host of other bad actors that have heavily influenced our foreign policy since the end of WWII.
 
#52
#52
Rasputin_Vol said:
Their aims are no different than those of Western countries. The Western countries have had a history of regime change, propping up dictators, robbing of resources and pushing windmills/solar energy projects. At least the Chinese are building major infrastructure projects and the Russians are pushing out the colonizers. China has only been there in a heavy way for a decade or so and Russia is just now getting their toes in the water. At least let them overthrow a few countries or kill a few hundred thousand before we paint them with the same broad brush. The Chinese and Russians are 2 centuries behind the others.



If the US left, do you think China (the world's largest importer and exporter) or OPEC states would have no incentive to fill that gap somehow? Unlike us in the West, these guys still want to make money and maintain an economy.
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Lol. So we are back on the USSR is not Russia argument.

And no China is not actually building the full infrastructure. It's their common bait and switch. They build up the services that the Chinese need, then stop. Because the infrastructure isnt complete the host country doesnt make any more money than they were before. And to get the infrastructure they got the host country had to sign away whatever resources they had, so the host has less money than they did before. And when the loan comes due, the host cant pay, and China ends up with even more.

At least when we "colonized" the companies were real, built by locals, worked by locals. The chinese are moving in and building their own stuff, and working it too. The host country is getting literally nothing. The chinese are actually colonizing vs our economic colonizing.

When you say they are 200 years behind us you are correct, just not in the manner you think. And it's not accidental. They know exactly what they are doing.
 
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#53
#53
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm a realist and you are a pollyanna idealistic view of American foreign policy. I guess in your mind, you think that we are out here saving the world... meanwhile, you ignore the Dulles Brothers, Zbignew Brzezinski and a host of other bad actors that have heavily influenced our foreign policy since the end of WWII.
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Not really; I have as little respect for a lot of what the Dulles brothers did as you - and that goes for most of our "diplomats". They generally appear to be a corps of arrogant idiots spawned in ivy league breeding grounds rather than pragmatic people with ideas and a will to work with others. Anyway it's not like most of the problematic others we deal with have been models of honesty. Everything that has been negotiated with the Chinese and Russians seems to have been broken by them even before the ink was dry on signatures.
 
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#54
#54
Rasputin_Vol said:
And again, answer me this: Why would the world's largest importer and exporter want to have bottlenecks in these major shipping lanes?

In my mind, they are located in these areas to counter any potential sanctions or embargoes by the US. They see how wild and giddy we get over sanctions, so that gives them every incentive to be strategic placed in these areas.
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You, for lack of any other way of putting it, are terribly short sighted.
 
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#55
#55
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm a realist and you are a pollyanna idealistic view of American foreign policy. I guess in your mind, you think that we are out here saving the world... meanwhile, you ignore the Dulles Brothers, Zbignew Brzezinski and a host of other bad actors that have heavily influenced our foreign policy since the end of WWII.
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No, I would say it's the opposite. You see the world as one big community and I see it as a playground with bullies that will take your lunch at the drop of a hat and if pushed to far will bring nukes to a gunfight.
 
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#57
#57
82_VOL_83 said:
No, I would say it's the opposite. You see the world as one big community and I see it as a playground with bullies that will take your lunch at the drop of a hat and if pushed to far will bring nukes to a gunfight.
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We are the bullies right now.
 
#58
#58
Rasputin_Vol said:
Such as???
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You like to throw out Vietnam in posts, it seems you added our presence in Laos and Cambodia to your arguments in the last couple of days. In 1962 several nations including the US, USSR, China, and both N and S Vietnam signed a treaty in Geneva assuring the neutrality of Laos - no foreign troops, no pressure to form alliances, etc. N Vietnam had close to 10K troops in Laos; they never pulled them out - just simply denied their presence. Granted Laos was a mess - the neutralist faction waffled, the Pathet Lao still worked with communist counties, and there was a faction that we worked with as the problem increased. The Chinese had one of their infamous road building projects going in northern Laos. We and the French pulled our military per the treaty while N Vietnam with the knowledge of Russia and China simply denied they had troops there. Essentially they broke the treaty as it was being signed.

Later we did form an alliance in Laos and ran some operations there - such as airborne Forward Air Controllers to direct strikes on the Ho Chi Minh Train and in support of friendly Laotian troops. And, yes, some of those FACs were US military pilots who were "no longer in the military" for their duration in Laos. If the idiots known as LBJ and McNamara had done the correct thing and stopped the flow of weapons into Vietnam, then the much more difficult and dangerous interdiction of supplies on the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos wouldn't have been the issue it was.
 
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#59
#59
AM64 said:
You like to throw out Vietnam in posts, it seems you added our presence in Laos and Cambodia to your arguments in the last couple of days. In 1962 several nations including the US, USSR, China, and both N and S Vietnam signed a treaty in Geneva assuring the neutrality of Laos - no foreign troops, no pressure to form alliances, etc. N Vietnam had close to 10K troops in Laos; they never pulled them out - just simply denied their presence. Granted Laos was a mess - the neutralist faction waffled, the Pathet Lao still worked with communist counties, and there was a faction that we worked with as the problem increased. The Chinese had one of their infamous road building projects going in northern Laos. We and the French pulled our military per the treaty while N Vietnam with the knowledge of Russia and China simply denied they had troops there. Essentially they broke the treaty as it was being signed.
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For now, I'm going to have to take your word on the US abiding by this treaty because I don't have much knowledge about the details of this obscure example that you pulled out of your arse as your best example of the US allegedly abiding by a treaty and/or the Chinese/Russians not honoring a treaty. But knowing our track record and being fully aware that the US was in Laos as dar back as the late 1950s and we supported the Hmong all the way until we left them high and dry, I simply find it hard to believe that the US really stopped their activates in the area after this obscure 1962 treaty. I would say it is highly unlikely, but again, I have no evidence of this other than our past reputation.

AM64 said:
Later we did form an alliance in Laos and ran some operations there - such as airborne Forward Air Controllers to direct strikes on the Ho Chi Minh Train and in support of friendly Laotian troops. And, yes, some of those FACs were US military pilots who were "no longer in the military" for their duration in Laos. If the idiots known as LBJ and McNamara had done the correct thing and stopped the flow of weapons into Vietnam, then the much more difficult and dangerous interdiction of supplies on the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos wouldn't have been the issue it was.
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Again with the coping... blaming the leadership for losses. Have you ever considered that poor leadership could be the reason why we get into these conflicts in the first place? WTF did Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam have to do with Main Street USA? Why did close to 60k Americans have to spill their blood, hundreds of thousands more coming back mentally/physically scarred and the wealth and surplus of our treasure need to be thrown away halfway around the world in some rice fields?
 
#60
#60
C-south said:
It’s like an entire continent that has never contributed a thing to modern society and has sold EVERY resource they own with nothing to show for it.
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This is correct.^^^^

Also, the middle east hasn't contributed anything except for oil.....and terrorism of course. That's it. No big break throughs in science, engineering, or medicine, ect for centuries. This used to not be the case, but Islam has kept them locked in the 7th century since it came forth.
 
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#61
#61
Rasputin_Vol said:
We are the bullies right now.
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Agreed. Russia and the U.S. have been bullies since world war II. China is a bully now too. England used to be a bully....France, Japan, Germany, Rome, Greece, Egypt....I could go on. It's the way the world has worked for thousands of years.
 
#62
#62
norrislakevol said:
Agreed. Russia and the U.S. have been bullies since world war II. China is a bully now too. England used to be a bully....France, Japan, Germany, Rome, Greece, Egypt....I could go on. It's the way the world has worked for thousands of years.
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But I thought we were the Exceptional Nation? The Shining City on The Hill?
 
#65
#65
WoodsmanVol said:
Well, maybe hooray for the Ruskies and Chinmen. The USA, England, Belgium, and other Westerner have bee raping and destabilizing Africa for better than a century. Guess it's the Reds turn despite the hue and cry from the origin rapists. A case of monkey see, monkey do, I suppose.
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We will continue also because we need those Metals for all the green batteries
 
#69
#69
C-south said:
It’s like an entire continent that has never contributed a thing to modern society and has sold EVERY resource they own with nothing to show for it.
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I suppose their technical and economic progress and hence potential to contribute were hindered by European colonization and the effects of colonization. That said, Africa's contribution in literature and the arts is substantial.
 
#70
#70
Rasputin_Vol said:
Projection. China hasn't shown any intent or even made any threats of monopolizing the sea routes or weaponizing them in the same way the US and British have historically. No different than the projection about Russia weaponizing energy on Europe when we sit here in December 2022 with the US being the ones that are weaponizing energy.


For whatever reason? Are you a student of history?
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China hasn't had the capability to monopolize or weaponize sea routes until very recently. Now that they can, they do; they are weaponizing what they can get away with. Look no further than their theft and militarization of other countries' territory in the SCS.
Historically China was an expansionist empire. Today's China frequently alludes to China's historic (or imaginary) boundaries to support their current claims.
 
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#71
#71
EasternVol said:
China hasn't had the capability to monopolize or weaponize sea routes until very recently. Now that they can, they do; they are weaponizing what they can get away with. Look no further than their theft and militarization of other countries' territory in the SCS.
Historically China was an expansionist empire. Today's China frequently alludes to China's historic (or imaginary) boundaries to support their current claims.
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The Chinese are smart enough to realize that they would have their hands full just maintaining control of the Chinese mainland. That BS you are talking in the highlighted is just that... BS.
 
#72
#72
norrislakevol said:
This is correct.^^^^

Also, the middle east hasn't contributed anything except for oil.....and terrorism of course. That's it. No big break throughs in science, engineering, or medicine, ect for centuries. This used to not be the case, but Islam has kept them locked in the 7th century since it came forth.
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You left out the part where the ME did lead the world in science, math, etc. long after Islam became the dominant religion there.
 
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#73
#73
Rasputin_Vol said:
The Chinese are smart enough to realize that they would have their hands full just maintaining control of the Chinese mainland. That BS you are talking in the highlighted is just that... BS.
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Have a look at the shoals and islands in the SCS which PRC has appropriated and militarized.
 
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#75
#75
Rasputin_Vol said:
Yeah... uninhabited shoals and atolls in the South China Sea. Far different than trying to take over the world.
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Those shoals and atolls, if militarized, control access to shipping lanes. China militarized them.
Not too long ago they announced that they had the right to fish in Indonesia's EEZ around Natuna, 'because historically we did'. They'll throw their weight around until somebody stops them.
 
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