Seems like we are about 2yrs away...

[majic73]

...from being a perennial challenger in the SEC E. We do seem improved on D, but even the coaches acknowledge we are undersized at the DT position. Obviously, we are young, and don't have much experience on the OL.

But after 2 games, I think we can see where our weaknesses lay. The OL is the biggest. Sure, that's obvious by now. But, I think the No.1 obstacle to our ability to win games in the SEC is that Butch and Bajakian are basically FORCING a classic pocket passer to run their read option scheme. I suspect they will look back on this and realize how bad of a mistake it was.

Dobbs is really the ONLY QB on the roster who fits the scheme. So, it's a tough choice to bench a senior in favor of a Sophomore. We fans tend to assume that because a player doesn't start, that = they suck. Not so.

I think in order for this team to have a fighting chance to prevail in this meat-grinder of a schedule, Bajakian is going to have to adapt his offense more to suit his pocket passer, rather than pretend defenses will respect the QB keeper because we make Worley run it once or twice in a game.

They don't. So, break it up a bit, mixing in some I-Formation and Pistol sets, and bring Dobbs in on critical 3rd or 4th and short, and goal line situations.

Worley is simply a bad fit for this scheme, so at least modify the scheme to fit the QB, not the other way around.

I hate to break it to you ...but this is not a 'read option ' scheme. Nor is it a zone read scheme .

This is a dive offense with a layered west coast passing attack . The zone read is simply one of a handful of counter plays to the dive play and out side power and sweep game .

Even if Dobbs or another profiecent running QB were to be at the helm ...you would see the QB keeper maybe one time a game . What is more important in this system is a guy that can check through the layered progressions and distribute the ball accurately ...which is the hallmark of the west coast game . The running game and passing game are integrated ...outside bubbles , flats to TEs and RB , H back passes are all part of the running game . The sprint draw and dive are the primary running plays in this offense , and the H back is used instead of a FB for power plays .

This offense should never be confused with a zone read O such as Oregons where everything is predicated off of that single option play ...or Auburns spread wing T . Butches offense is a pro-style passing attack and spread based power running game .

 

[VOLorNuttin]

Thread title is misleading. Says we are two years away the discusses Worley's performance. I'll address the thread title. Most knew when butch took over it was a 3 to 4 year rebuild. IMO we right on schedule. Great young talent, huge amount of underclassmen in the 2 deep. If the excellent recruiting continues and when these young guns get some maturity under their belts, we'll be competitive with anyone. People need to sit back and enjoy the ride. When you've been as low as the Vols have been the last few years it makes the ride to the top all that much sweeter. These opposing coaches better be careful about running the score up now because they may be on the other end of it in the not so distant future. IMO

You and a dozen others here have the damndest time with reading comprehension. Please show me where I said Worley sucked, in my original post. Go ahead, I'll wait.

What you and the other yahoos are trying to do is construct a Straw man argument. That is to say, you try to put words in other people's mouths, so you can attack them....for those words. :crazy: Pure stupidity.

I never said a word about Worley's performance. I said he is not a scheme fit...and he's not. No sense pretending he is. However, I went on to say that Bajakian should try to fit the offensive scheme to Worley, rather than the other way around.

 

[deaconkane]

I really do not understand what Worley needs to do to get all of our fans to get behind him. He continues to get better with each game.

Worley isn't for this offense. Simple. He would be hellacious in the pistol, just get rid of the read option. I really hope bajakian tries it. Get the ball out faster, less time for our o line to block.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

I hate to break it to you ...but this is not a 'read option ' scheme. Nor is it a zone read scheme .

This is a dive offense with a layered west coast passing attack . The zone read is simply one of a handful of counter plays to the dive play and out side power and sweep game .

Even if Dobbs or another profiecent running QB were to be at the helm ...you would see the QB keeper maybe one time a game . What is more important in this system is a guy that can check through the layered progressions and distribute the ball accurately ...which is the hallmark of the west coast game . The running game and passing game are integrated ...outside bubbles , flats to TEs and RB , H back passes are all part of the running game . The sprint draw and dive are the primary running plays in this offense , and the H back is used instead of a FB for power plays .

This offense should never be confused with a zone read O such as Oregons where everything is predicated off of that single option play ...or Auburns spread wing T . Butches offense is a pro-style passing attack and spread based power running game .

I use the term read option as a general description for the type of alignment we use to run out of. The QB has the ability to pull and run based off his read, most plays.

I watched some of the Cincinnati games from 2012, and Munchie Legeux (sp?) was the starting QB the first half of the season. Even though Kay was the better passer, they went with Munchie because he posed a more legitimate threat to run the ball than Kay.

Even though Munchie wasn't a burner like Mariotta, he could make some big plays with his feet, when needed. He would run about a half-dozen times per game. That is still far more than what Worley is doing, and defenses had to respect Munchie...or they'd get gashed pretty good.

Defenses simply do not respect Worley's ability to run the ball. They'd rather take one 5yd run from Worley per game, than to commit extra defenders to contain him all game long.

 

[majic73]

I use the term read option as a general description for the type of alignment we use to run out of. The QB has the ability to pull and run based off his read, most plays.

I watched some of the Cincinnati games from 2012, and Munchie Legeux (sp?) was the starting QB the first half of the season. Even though Kay was the better passer, they went with Munchie because he posed a more legitimate threat to run the ball than Kay.

Even though Munchie wasn't a burner like Mariotta, he could make some big plays with his feet, when needed. He would run about a half-dozen times per game. That is still far more than what Worley is doing, and defenses had to respect Munchie...or they'd get gashed pretty good.

Defenses simply do not respect Worley's ability to run the ball. They'd rather take one 5yd run from Worley per game, than to commit extra defenders to contain him all game long.

I understand what you are saying ...but this is not the offense we are running . We are running a west coast passing attack with a spread based power running game . The primary play in the running game is the dive play and various counters are worked off of that to attack the outside gaps and the 'H' gap . These counters are the college version of the NFL stretch plays. This is a pro-style offense all the way . The QB keeper is just a wrinkle here .

Maybe this was difference at Cinci because he did not have athletes all over the field . Not sure , but that is not what we are doing here

 

[Godfatha]

The same can be said for your reading comprehension. Reread my post. I simply commented that he is doing perfectly fine running the offense. He is accurate on his passing, which could not be said about Dobbs last year. I have never seen a fanbase like ours that simply cannot be happy with a win for any reason at all. Some must find some reason to change everything about the team to suit their own personal agendas.

It's our running game that has me concerned. With the read option and Worley only taking it once or twice a game, our running game suffers. We will need the running game to compete. It's no knock on Worley. Not many QBs will be able to run an effective offense without a respectable running game.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

I understand what you are saying ...but this is not the offense we are running . We are running a west coast passing attack with a spread based power running game . The primary play in the running game is the dive play and various counters are worked off of that to attack the outside gaps and the 'H' gap . These counters are the college version of the NFL stretch plays. This is a pro-style offense all the way . The QB keeper is just a wrinkle here .

Maybe this was difference at Cinci because he did not have athletes all over the field . Not sure , but that is not what we are doing here

I was talking about the alignment...not the passing game concepts. Even when we pass, we are predicating it off the zone read "look."

My point is, nobody respects the Read component...regardless of what terminology or label you care to place on it.

 

[TheEndlessEnigma]

Only thing that really matters at the end of the game is that we score more points than the other team more often than not. That is improvement.

 

[gogators13]

I think Butch has the program going in the right direction. Vol fans have to stay patient.

 

[Shakinthefat]

2012 Auburn 3 - 9
2013 Auburn 12 - 2
A little less than a 2 year turn around. Can happen.

 

[majic73]

I was talking about the alignment...not the passing game concepts. Even when we pass, we are predicating it off the zone read "look."

My point is, nobody respects the Read component...regardless of what terminology or label you care to place on it.

We are predicating everything off the Dive . The Qb Pulls the hand-off and passes ...he does not run . This is a varient of play action . Any read that is done is based on run vs pass . There really is no QB keeper element to this offense except as a counter to a naked H gap.

Many are calling this a power spread because of all of the power elements involved in the running game

I prefer to think of it as a Dive based offense , varients of the old Dive 21 I form plays are what most of this is based off of...with the play action being based on whether the QB hands to the back OR pulls the ball and passes ...and in the west coast vein , passes to a short very quick route ( bubble to receiver ) that is an extension of the running game

There is inveriably no QB keeper or read option keeper on 98% of these plays ...the read is to a) Hand or B) keep and pass . This is an offense that a guy like Manning or Brady could run .

 

[CA_Vol]

Love how fans think an entire offense can be revamped in a 3 days

With all due respect, the offense didn't make sense last year either. We are definitely trying to fit a square peg in a round hole with this scheme. We do not have a QB that really fits the read option and don't have one on the horizon unless Jennings develops quickly.

I just think we need to run more of a west coast style rather than a read option where the QB never is a threat to keep it. Just my perspective.

 

[majic73]

With all due respect, the offense didn't make sense last year either. We are definitely trying to fit a square peg in a round hole with this scheme. We do not have a QB that really fits the read option and don't have one on the horizon unless Jennings develops quickly.

I just think we need to run more of a west coast style rather than a read option where the QB never is a threat to keep it. Just my perspective.

WE do not run a QB zone read system ! If you ignore the play fake by Worley and watch the running back ...we are watching a power running game . Specifically , it is based on DIVE concepts and the running backs on many plays are in zone read plays where they have 2-3 options, This offense would function the same regardless as to if Worley conducted a play fake or not. It would also function the same out of an I or a single wing, You are seeing dives, Isos , off tackles , sweeps , jet sweeps , counters . You are NOT seeing a QB zone read ...excepts for 2-3 plays a game . It is a very small part of this offense.

Where the problems tend to lie at this point are the obvious ...the offensive line is green . More importantly the running backs are green to this system . They are the ones makting the 'read' in all of the Dive plays ...which are 70% of this offense . There reads are slow and indecisive at this point , but when they get it right it looks good !

This is a Power / Dive spread offense ...not a QB Zone read offense.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

We are predicating everything off the Dive . The Qb Pulls the hand-off and passes ...he does not run . This is a varient of play action . Any read that is done is based on run vs pass . There really is no QB keeper element to this offense except as a counter to a naked H gap.

Many are calling this a power spread because of all of the power elements involved in the running game

I prefer to think of it as a Dive based offense , varients of the old Dive 21 I form plays are what most of this is based off of...with the play action being based on whether the QB hands to the back OR pulls the ball and passes ...and in the west coast vein , passes to a short very quick route ( bubble to receiver ) that is an extension of the running game

There is inveriably no QB keeper or read option keeper on 98% of these plays ...the read is to a) Hand or B) keep and pass . This is an offense that a guy like Manning or Brady could run .

You can try to haggle over terminology all you want, yet still, most of our plays are indeed predicated off the Zone Read. Even when it's a designed run or pass, the QB shows the Read Option. That is why you see him in a lowered stance, poised to run, on any given play.

The real issue here is, that "look" doesn't fool anyone...because teams know Worley is not going to run 99.9% of the time.

 

[sjt18]

This is pretty much what I was saying in the original post. That the coaches have deemed Worley to be the best option at QB....but that doesn't mean he fits the offense the best.

Except that you either have a misunderstanding of Jones' system or else aren't seeing what Worley is doing.

Since he does not fit, it's going to hurt us...no doubt about it. Worley obviously does not like to pull the ball and run, even when it's there for him to do so. Even if he did run it more often, he's not going to gash teams like a Marcus Mariotta would.

And... that's not what Jones asks his QB to do. He asks them to run just enough to keep D's honest. He wants his QB first to manage the O and second to distribute the ball.

So, my point was that Bajakian needs to modify this offense a bit more to fit the QB, and not force a pocket passer to run the read option.

The O requires the QB to pull the ball just enough to keep D's honest... nothing more. FWIW, Worley needs to pull it a little more to make the threat credible.

If Chaney can switch to the Pistol formation late in the season (2011), because of Bray's sore thumb, then Bajakian can mix in a good deal of I-formation and Pistol sets, to mix it up. But running read option all the time is making this offense way too predictable...without a credible running QB threat

When Worley has pulled the ball he's been effective. He just needs to do it a little more until teams stop crashing their ends.

 

[sjt18]

You're the idiot, Forrest. I said Worley is a bad fit for this offense....and he is. PERIOD. You know damn well, that if CBJ was the HC when Worley was a HS Senior, he would not have recruited him.

Why? Because he sucks? No. Because he doesn't fit this offensive scheme. I don't know why that's so hard for you and others to grasp. Would he be a good fit in Cutcliffe or Chaney's offense, yes he would.

But, CBJ and Bajakian feel scheme fit has to take a back seat to experience/seniority. I'm ok with that. Tough call to make on their part. So, what I said in the original post was, Bajakian should adjust/modify his scheme to fit Worley better....to get away from the Read Option element more and mix in more pro style (I formation) and/or Pistol formations.

He could sprinkle in more and more each week, until the read option is only a small portion of this offense.

You live in denial... don't you?

Dormady is Jones' guy in the '15 recruiting class. As of the start of this season I believe he said he had NEVER had a rush in his HS career. Worley is probably faster than Dormady. If Jones wants what you think he wants from a QB.... then he's totally confused on how to recruit QB's.

 

[sjt18]

I use the term read option as a general description for the type of alignment we use to run out of. The QB has the ability to pull and run based off his read, most plays.

I watched some of the Cincinnati games from 2012, and Munchie Legeux (sp?) was the starting QB the first half of the season. Even though Kay was the better passer, they went with Munchie because he posed a more legitimate threat to run the ball than Kay.

Even though Munchie wasn't a burner like Mariotta, he could make some big plays with his feet, when needed. He would run about a half-dozen times per game. That is still far more than what Worley is doing, and defenses had to respect Munchie...or they'd get gashed pretty good.

Defenses simply do not respect Worley's ability to run the ball. They'd rather take one 5yd run from Worley per game, than to commit extra defenders to contain him all game long.

Jones yanked Leguax and replaced him with Kay.... because his passing didn't develop like they hoped and he was not an effective game manager.

 

[sjt18]

I use the term read option as a general description for the type of alignment we use to run out of. The QB has the ability to pull and run based off his read, most plays.
.

And... you're still wrong. Using terms that are not accurate doesn't help.

 

[butchna]

I use the term read option as a general description for the type of alignment we use to run out of. The QB has the ability to pull and run based off his read, most plays.

I watched some of the Cincinnati games from 2012, and Munchie Legeux (sp?) was the starting QB the first half of the season. Even though Kay was the better passer, they went with Munchie because he posed a more legitimate threat to run the ball than Kay.

Even though Munchie wasn't a burner like Mariotta, he could make some big plays with his feet, when needed. He would run about a half-dozen times per game. That is still far more than what Worley is doing, and defenses had to respect Munchie...or they'd get gashed pretty good.

Defenses simply do not respect Worley's ability to run the ball. They'd rather take one 5yd run from Worley per game, than to commit extra defenders to contain him all game long.

Kay had a better per carry average and a nice yardage total by the end of that season...for whatever reason Legaux won out after that fall camp and Butch tried to let him secure the job...but the offense ran better under Kay because he fit the offense...MAYBE Butch learned something about his offense and you should follow suit?

 

[VOLorNuttin]

You live in denial... don't you?

Dormady is Jones' guy in the '15 recruiting class. As of the start of this season I believe he said he had NEVER had a rush in his HS career. Worley is probably faster than Dormady. If Jones wants what you think he wants from a QB.... then he's totally confused on how to recruit QB's.

Denial? What sort of QB do you think Juan Jennings is? Funny you should cherry pick the one who suits your opinion while ignoring the other.

We don't yet know how mobile Dormady is or isn't. But nice (hollow) try, though.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

And... you're still wrong. Using terms that are not accurate doesn't help.

What the funk do you know about it, genius? Absolutely nothing...that's what. BTW, I'm wrong because YOU say so? GTFOH.

 

[Cartervol]

QB will be the preseason story next year. The fact Worley is having to play says we don't have the QB of the future here yet. Worley isn't the right fit for this offensive scheme and the read option isn't fooling anyone. He keeps it maybe what twice a game.. At least 2 years away if they get the right QB. This scheme is meant to be run at a faster pace. Not getting to the line quicker, but the read option needs to be quicker.. Not going to happen with Worley so the run game will struggle all year more than likely, if they run out of that all year. Really isn't going to matter how much this line improves. The QB is the key to the run in this scheme..

 

[sjt18]

Denial? What sort of QB do you think Juan Jennings is? Funny you should cherry pick the one who suits your opinion while ignoring the other.

We don't yet know how mobile Dormady is or isn't. But nice (hollow) try, though.

You are wrong about ALL of it. Multiple posters have tried to make you see but you absolutely refuse.

Jennings will get his shot at QB but will have to show signs of being able to MANAGE THE O and distribute the ball EARLY to stay there. Dormady is the #1 QB in the class. He is not a running QB AT ALL.

I like Dobbs. I hope he develops into a great QB. But you are absolutely fixated on him. The reason he isn't starting is that he isn't the "ideal" QB for Jones' system at this point. His accuracy wasn't good enough and he was well behind Worley in his ability to manage and lead the O.

Other posters have told you what Jones wants. I have told you. JONES HIMSELF has told you his priorities for a QB. Jones actions speak loud and clear about it... yet you refuse to believe any of us.

 

[sjt18]

QB will be the preseason story next year. The fact Worley is having to play says we don't have the QB of the future here yet. Worley isn't the right fit for this offensive scheme and the read option isn't fooling anyone. He keeps it maybe what twice a game.. At least 2 years away if they get the right QB. This scheme is meant to be run at a faster pace. Not getting to the line quicker, but the read option needs to be quicker.. Not going to happen with Worley so the run game will struggle all year more than likely, if they run out of that all year. Really isn't going to matter how much this line improves. The QB is the key to the run in this scheme..

Worley's play right now is almost EXACTLY what Jones wants from a QB. He just needs to run a little more when it opens up.

Jones does NOT want his QB running more than 2-4 times per game.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

You are wrong about ALL of it. Multiple posters have tried to make you see but you absolutely refuse.

Jennings will get his shot at QB but will have to show signs of being able to MANAGE THE O and distribute the ball EARLY to stay there. Dormady is the #1 QB in the class. He is not a running QB AT ALL.

I like Dobbs. I hope he develops into a great QB. But you are absolutely fixated on him. The reason he isn't starting is that he isn't the "ideal" QB for Jones' system at this point. His accuracy wasn't good enough and he was well behind Worley in his ability to manage and lead the O.

Other posters have told you what Jones wants. I have told you. JONES HIMSELF has told you his priorities for a QB.... yet you refuse to believe any of us.

You don't know squat, Rain Man...and yet you sit here and act like you're the arbitrator of truth and fact. Newsflash!!!...you're not!

The fact of the matter is, Butch has never explicitly stated what classification his offense is. It's a mixture of different concepts, so regardless of what you and Tom, Dick and Harry might SPECULATE that it is....that's ALL it is. Speculation.