Seems like we are about 2yrs away...

[Cartervol]

Worley's play right now is almost EXACTLY what Jones wants from a QB. He just needs to run a little more when it opens up.

Jones does NOT want his QB running more than 2-4 times per game.

Really? Then what were doing in the run game makes even less sense then. Why hand your back the ball 5 yards in the backfield every time you run if the QB isn't much of a threat to run also?

 

[Otis07]

Worley has had two good games against weak competition, it is completely up to him and the offensive line to make a different impression of the Big Orange offense....so far pretty vanilla, there is always hope for a miracle

 

[VolFan4Life87]

Except that you either have a misunderstanding of Jones' system or else aren't seeing what Worley is doing.

And... that's not what Jones asks his QB to do. He asks them to run just enough to keep D's honest. He wants his QB first to manage the O and second to distribute the ball.

The O requires the QB to pull the ball just enough to keep D's honest... nothing more. FWIW, Worley needs to pull it a little more to make the threat credible.



When Worley has pulled the ball he's been effective. He just needs to do it a little more until teams stop crashing their ends.

Hit the nail on the head with final bolded comments. I don't think Jones wants Worley to be Marcus Mariota but either he hasn't quantified to Worley how much he needs to keep it to keep the D honest, or Worley isn't keeping the ball as often as he should.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

Really? Then what were doing in the run game makes even less sense then. Why hand your back the ball 5 yards in the backfield every time you run if the QB isn't much of a threat to run also?

You're speaking to the VN Judge, so watch it. He might try to have to banned for contempt. Pffffffffft!

 

[sjt18]

What the funk do you know about it, genius? Absolutely nothing...that's what. BTW, I'm wrong because YOU say so? GTFOH.

I know nothing more than what JONES HAS SAID about it... you... don't even apparently know that.

 

[majic73]

You can try to haggle over terminology all you want, yet still, most of our plays are indeed predicated off the Zone Read. Even when it's a designed run or pass, the QB shows the Read Option. That is why you see him in a lowered stance, poised to run, on any given play.

The real issue here is, that "look" doesn't fool anyone...because teams know Worley is not going to run 99.9% of the time.

I understand the 'look' you are talking about . Block that look from you mind for just a moment. Take the play fake that Worley runs out of the equation . You are looking at a dive offense . A power running offense. Period. End of story . The dive play is a an option read by the running back ..with two forward options and a cut back option . This is 70% of this offense. The rest is straight up power running .

Regardless of if Worley conducts the play fake or not ...this is the offense. Dan Marino , in all of his immobile grace , could conduct this offense. He could he run the play fake . The play fake is only to key a guy to the QB ...nothing more. The QB only has the keep option 2-3 times a game. Why ? because this is a dive offense , not a QB zone read offense. If we have a true running QB ...maybe you see 5 or 6 qb keepers a game. But you will continue to see power running and dive plays with the running back having the read option ....not the QB ....even if the QB conducts a play fake after every single play ...

Just to be clear ..conceptually this offense has little or nothing to do with QB zone reads . It is a power running offense grounded in the dive style running plays and the running game visa via the west coast passing game .

 

[majic73]

Really? Then what were doing in the run game makes even less sense then. Why hand your back the ball 5 yards in the backfield every time you run if the QB isn't much of a threat to run also?

because it is a dive offense . The running back conducts the 'read option' He usually has 2-3 reads ..one being a cut back. Think Eric Rhett , Florida.

The problems are not conceptual . The O line is green and the backs are green to the system . When the backs have gotten it right , they have done very well. I suspect they will become better at this as the season progresses.

 

[VolFan4Life87]

I understand the 'look' you are talking about . Block that look from you mind for just a moment. Take the play fake that Worley runs out of the equation . You are looking at a dive offense . A power running offense. Period. End of story . The dive play is a an option read by the running back ..with two forward options and a cut back option . This is 70% of this offense. The rest is straight up power running .

Regardless of if Worley conducts the play fake or not ...this is the offense. Dan Marino , in all of his immobile grace , could conduct this offense. He could he run the play fake . The play fake is only to key a guy to the QB ...nothing more. The QB only has the keep option 2-3 times a game. Why ? because this is a dive offense , not a QB zone read offense. If we have a true running QB ...maybe you see 5 or 6 qb keepers a game. But you will continue to see power running and dive plays with the running back having the read option ....not the QB ....even if the QB conducts a play fake after every single play ...

Just to be clear ..conceptually this offense has little or nothing to do with QB zone reads . It is a power running offense grounded in the dive style running plays and the running game visa via the west coast passing game .

A power running offense that always hands the ball to the RB approx. 5 yards behind the LOS without a lead blocker. What's "power" about it? Not throwing rocks, I'm honestly curious. If we're not truly running a zone read, what're we doing in shotgun formation every snap faking a hand off?

 

[armchair]

Worley is playing well. He is neither a spread QB or a classic drop back. He's not fast and elusive enough to be a great spread/read QB but he does have a bit more mobility than the last four or more drop-back QBs we've had. Somewhere in between. We haven't really been a good running team, or a great offensive team, since we ditched the I formation with fullback and gone to the single back sets that everybody uses now. I guess second TEs have replaced the fullback, or additional receivers, but no matter we've not been as good. I can understand why Worley does not keep the ball much, or why the coaches don't want him to keep it: we don't want him getting hurt. We've moved the ball fairly well at times this year--Worley is spreading it around nicely--but I'm not sure how you would describe our offense; it's not a real "read" since the QB simply doesn't run it much at all.

It's been interesting to observe the Redskins with RGIII. He and the Skins offense were amazing in 2012 running the read. Griffin was running the ball off the read, defenses were caught off guard, and the skins had a stout offense. Then he hurt his knee, had surgery, and everybody said he had to run less to stay healthy. He runs it far less now, very little read, and the Skins offense has gone in the toilet since he is not a great pocket passer. And now some fans are complaining that the team should be running read again--or using their backup QB who is a more natural pocket passer!

When we were in our 1990s heyday, we had a bruising running attack, good offensive lines and skill players, and could throw it effectively too. Then the game switched from power running and passing to spread, and we've sort of been stuck with traditional passers and less overall talent over the last decade and been trying to find a new offensive identity. I haven't seen it yet, although if we can keep building on the current passing game with some stronger running, I'll be happy.

 

[sjt18]

Hit the nail on the head with final bolded comments. I don't think Jones wants Worley to be Marcus Mariota but either he hasn't quantified to Worley how much he needs to keep it to keep the D honest, or Worley isn't keeping the ball as often as he should.

Could be what majic73 said... he says the QB doesn't always have a true option to pull it.

 

[sjt18]

LOL.... what happened to your link VolorNuttin... did you actually read it then delete it?

It basically says EXACTLY what we've been trying to tell you. It IS a spread offense... it is NOT an option offense.

 

[majic73]

A power running offense that always hands the ball to the RB approx. 5 yards behind the LOS without a lead blocker. What's "power" about it? Not throwing rocks, I'm honestly curious. If we're not truly running a zone read, what're we doing in shotgun formation every snap faking a hand off?

They use and H Back as a lead blocker in many cases , he is a flex player who can appear at the point of attack or be a quicker hitting receiver than the prototypical FB .

There is alot of zone blocking , traps and pulls. The goal is to have more hats at the point of attack than the defense. The running back in this dive system has 2-3 options that he reads ...he can go with power or cut back
The Oline and backs are green ...this is a complex read and react system that will take time to perfect.

The fake handoff on virtually every play is ...play action. To freeze LBs and safeties for a fraction of a second.

So why the shotgun ? The running game is not just limited to the running game in this system. It is a layered west coast passing game . All of the bubbles, flats , shallow crosses ...this is in effect part of the running game . This is yet another reason that you see and will continue to see big receivers . They bring power blocking in these west coast plays even block inside TE assignments on spread power running plays . The shotgun facilitates this aspect of the running game ( the west coast passing style)

I think everybody should forget about the QB zone read . It is a veeeeery minor part of this offense ..2 or 3 plays a game .

 

[VOLorNuttin]

LOL.... what happened to your link VolorNuttin... did you actually read it then delete it?

It basically says EXACTLY what we've been trying to tell you. It IS a spread offense... it is NOT an option offense.

Nope. Someone else deleted it.

This is exactly what I've been talking about. We are giving the read option look a majority of the time.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBvFDHigBT4[/youtube]

Butch's own description of his offense has ALWAYS avoided using explicit terms of classification. That's why I said, it doesn't matter what terminology one uses (many coaches use a mixture of concepts....get it, yet?), the point remains the same.

When you show a defense a Read Option LOOK, and have no QB who can run the ball, then the scheme fails to execute as efficiently as it would if it did. That's why CBJ said last year, when Dobbs was inserted as a starter, that he "OPENS UP THE PLAYBOOK, AND MAKES THE OFFENSE MORE DYNAMIC!"

SEC Media Days: Butch Jones Discusses The New Look Vols Offense

 

[TOP]

We already are a challenger.

Vols beating the Gators and Cocks wouldn't be a big upset. Georgia will probably drop some games, still not superior to the Vols even if they're the best looking team in the east. It's a flip of the coin for basically those 3 games. Hell, Kentucky too. People roll dice all the time with 6 sides for money. I'll take 50/50 against these teams and hope the dice roll our way. Vols can beat any of those teams on any given day.

 

[sjt18]

Nope. Someone else deleted it.

This is exactly what I've been talking about. We are giving the read option look a majority of the time.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBvFDHigBT4[/youtube]

Butch's own description of his offense has ALWAYS avoided using explicit terms of classification. That's why I said, it doesn't matter what terminology one uses (many coaches use a mixture of concepts....get it, yet?), the point remains the same.

When you show a defense a Read Option LOOK, and have no QB who can run the ball, then the scheme fails to execute as efficiently as it would if it did. That's why CBJ said last year, when Dobbs was inserted as a starter, that he "OPENS UP THE PLAYBOOK, AND MAKES THE OFFENSE MORE DYNAMIC!"

SEC Media Days: Butch Jones Discusses The New Look Vols Offense

Wow. You.... are obtuse. Majic73 has explained this to you in detail yet you continue to misunderstand it... and then deflect and evade.

I'll leave it to him for now to try to get through to you... or at least to answer you so no one else misunderstands.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

Wow. You.... are obtuse.

Wow...that's all you got? :blink: No facts to back up your position? Just "You suck. :realmad: You stink....blah.blah.blah.blah" Impressive. Pfffft.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

Wow. You.... are obtuse. Majic73 has explained this to you in detail yet you continue to misunderstand it... and then deflect and evade.

I'll leave it to him for now to try to get through to you... or at least to answer you so no one else misunderstands.

Because you don't have a f-ing clue what you are talking about. You're right though...since you have no clue...you need to butt your arse out of the conversation, little man.

You were just talking all this nonsense about "what CBJ SAID." I showed you what he said and it shut your silly little arse up. Buh-Bye! :salute:

The "Dive" Play is one concept of the Zone Read...just like you have different variants of the Zone Option (Triple or Dual)

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm0lOxwzUuk[/youtube]

 

[sjt18]

Wow...that's all you got? :blink: No facts to back up your position? Just "You suck. :realmad: You stink....blah.blah.blah.blah" Impressive. Pfffft.

You won't respond to facts. The facts have been posted by majic73 repeatedly in this thread. I'm not as knowledgeable as he is but I've also tried to tell you... That's basically why you are obtuse.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

They use and H Back as a lead blocker in many cases , he is a flex player who can appear at the point of attack or be a quicker hitting receiver than the prototypical FB .

There is alot of zone blocking , traps and pulls. The goal is to have more hats at the point of attack than the defense. The running back in this dive system has 2-3 options that he reads ...he can go with power or cut back
The Oline and backs are green ...this is a complex read and react system that will take time to perfect.

The fake handoff on virtually every play is ...play action. To freeze LBs and safeties for a fraction of a second.

So why the shotgun ? The running game is not just limited to the running game in this system. It is a layered west coast passing game . All of the bubbles, flats , shallow crosses ...this is in effect part of the running game . This is yet another reason that you see and will continue to see big receivers . They bring power blocking in these west coast plays even block inside TE assignments on spread power running plays . The shotgun facilitates this aspect of the running game ( the west coast passing style)

I think everybody should forget about the QB zone read . It is a veeeeery minor part of this offense ..2 or 3 plays a game .

Thank you for trying to correct me, Professor, but this is the Zone Read Option all day, every day....and twice on Sunday. The Dive is just one option/variant of it.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acU3m8ajPI4[/youtube]

 

[VOLorNuttin]

You won't respond to facts. The facts have been posted by majic73 repeatedly in this thread. I'm not as knowledgeable as he is but I've also tried to tell you... That's basically why you are obtuse.

Facts? You don't even know what the funk you're talking about....so how can you determine what it factual and what isn't?

You're just trying to rely on someone else's argument....which falls flat on it's face. Why? Because he is arguing that we are running a variant of the same Offense I've been referring to. Bye-Bye, little man. Go play with the other kids outside.

 

[sjt18]

Because you don't have a f-ing clue what you are talking about. You're right though...since you have no clue...you need to butt your arse out of the conversation, little man.

You were just talking all this nonsense about "what CBJ SAID." I showed you what he said and it shut your silly little arse up. Buh-Bye! :salute:

Except you are so obtuse you hear what you want to hear, read what you want to read in spite of what Jones actually said.

It is futile to present facts to someone as determined to be ignorant as you are.

The "Dive" Play is one concept of the Zone Read...just like you have different variants of the Zone Option (Triple or Dual)

No. A dive is a play within various concepts. You won't accept this I am sure... but it is nonetheless true. Jones does NOT run a option based system. That's a simple fact. Therefore he can AND DOES use QB's with skill sets like Worley's with more frequency than dual threat QB's. He requires a mobile QB. He would not recruit a Bray or Ainge or even Manning to run his system in all likelihood.

Running is not Worley's strong suit... but he is more than sufficiently mobile enough to do what Jones' asks of a QB. For his 3 years at Cincy, his QB's consistently avg'd less than 11 rushes per game to include sacks and scrambles. Worley is averaging 6 per game. Dobbs ran it a little more than 7 times per game last year including sacks and scrambles... and it was a strong suit for him.

You are simply wrong.

 

[majic73]

Because you don't have a f-ing clue what you are talking about. You're right though...since you have no clue...you need to butt your arse out of the conversation, little man.

You were just talking all this nonsense about "what CBJ SAID." I showed you what he said and it shut your silly little arse up. Buh-Bye! :salute:

The "Dive" Play is one concept of the Zone Read...just like you have different variants of the Zone Option (Triple or Dual)

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm0lOxwzUuk[/youtube]

Yes ! Now the next step . All of the 'reads' in our system are done by the running backs ! Not the QB . The RB has the freedom to go inside , or bounce outside based on his 'read' Not the QB . Our QB keeper is more of a play action ...where rather than run the QB pulls up and passes to a short route and the athlete runs ( west coast passing) . Dobbs didnt run much either when he played .

Whether I can reach you with what I am trying to explain here ..I am not sure . But rest assurred , you will not see many QB keepers out of this system regadless of who is playing QB . What I hope you and the rest of Volnation see by the end of this season is running backs making the right reads and exploding for huge gains and the QB hitting in the rythmic west coast passing game , putting athletes in position to make huge gains.

Just remember , when you are still beating your head against the wall months later , maybe years later , wondering why our QBs never keep the ball , I tried to de-mystify this for ya!

GO VOLS !!

 

[Otis07]

we are a good quarterback away NOW....we have a guy who can manage the game, not one who is going put it on his shoulder and go win it AKA Heath Shuler, Tee Martin, Casey Clausen....I might be reaching but Jonathon Crompton would be giving us a real shot this season

 

[VOLorNuttin]

Yes ! Now the next step . All of the 'reads' in our system are done by the running backs ! Not the QB . The RB has the freedom to go inside , or bounce outside based on his 'read' Not the QB . Our QB keeper is more of a play action ...where rather than run the QB pulls up and passes to a short route and the athlete runs ( west coast passing) . Dobbs didnt run much either when he played .

Whether I can reach you with what I am trying to explain here ..I am not sure . But rest assurred , you will not see many QB keepers out of this system regadless of who is playing QB . What I hope you and the rest of Volnation see by the end of this season is running backs making the right reads and exploding for huge gains and the QB hitting in the rythmic west coast passing game , putting athletes in position to make huge gains.

Just remember , when you are still beating your head against the wall months later , maybe years later , wondering why our QBs never keep the ball , I tried to de-mystify this for ya!

GO VOLS !!

You are trying to correct me to sound intelligent, but you fail to acknowledge it is STILL under the umbrella of the Zone Read...you can bang your head all day, if you want...about who reads or who runs. IT IS STILL THE ZONE READ OPTION. Whether we run different variants, such as the dive, triple option, dual option, etc. it doesn't matter. The QB shows the defense the ZONE READ LOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If Dobbs is the QB, they HAVE to respect the QB pulling the ball!!!!

Whether we mix in West Coast passing concepts, etc. How many times the QB pulls in this offense is irrelvant, and doesn't change the fact that it's based on the Zone Read....PERIOD!

You sitting here arguing that a Chevy Volt isn't a Chevy, because it's a Volt. Good f-ing grief. Sitting here arguing with folks who like to hear themselves argue.

 

[sjt18]

Facts? You don't even know what the funk you're talking about....so how can you determine what it factual and what isn't?

You're just trying to rely on someone else's argument....which falls flat on it's face. Why? Because he is arguing that we are running a variant of the same Offense I've been referring to. Bye-Bye, little man. Go play with the other kids outside.

I know enough to know that you are wrong... and clinging in vanity to the position you staked out with Dobbs.

I like Dobbs... but for some reason your ego is attached to proving that you weren't wrong about who the best option at QB is. Jones chose Worley. He knows the strength and weaknesses of his options... and still chose Worley. For some reason, you just can't accept that.