Shocking news on the Duke lacrosse team incident

[therealUT]

When you say the citizens of Durham demand someone hang exactly who are you referring to? Which citizens? It also disgusts me to think that someone with proscutorial discretion would put anyone through a rape trial, including the alleged victim, knowing that they cannot win but solely to score political points. Apparently, Mr. Nifong already appeared at the black college today with the mayor and announced that the case is not going away and he'll just pursue it the way they did back before we had DNA evidence. I guess the defense attorneys will just paly along and not use the DNA evidence in themselves. What a joke! This is what happens when you let the lunatics run the asylum.

I am referring to the citizens who have hated what Duke represents for years. This is as perfect of a storm as you can get:

Blue collar, lower class town which hosts a very white collar, high class university. Lacrosse is a sport that even more represents aristocracy, and the team at Duke is alleged to have raped a lower class student who is stripping her way through college. One Duke player sends an email to his teammates in which he expresses his desire and plan to kill the stripper. Then, the DNA evidence comes back and is negative. Now you have the word of one lower class girl against the words of a whole team of upper class guys.

Whether or not she is lying, there is still the email out there. The email alone is enough to prosecute (maybe not enough to convict,) however, I believe that McFadyen, pressured by teammates and the university, will plea to the lesser Sexual Assault charge in order to make this go away as quickly as possible.

 

[GAVol]

I don't claim to know the details, but I don't see how anybody will plea to anything in the absence of a single trace of DNA evidence.

 

[therealUT]

I don't claim to know the details, but I don't see how anybody will plea to anything in the absence of a single trace of DNA evidence.

The DA will come after McFadyen with a conspiracy to commit murder charge, which is a Class A Felony in NC. The DA also probably has enough evidence in the email to get through a Grand Jury and conviction would probably be around a 50:50 shot.

Offering the sexual assault plea bargain, would allow the woman in question to save face, appease the constituents of Durham, make this storm pass more quickly, and keep that email from surfacing again, as it would over and over again on Sportscenter and the like during any type of arraignment and trial.

 

[volinbham]

I was under the impression that the "email" refered to strippers in general or an unamed stripper but not necessarily the stripper bringing the charges.

The email is vile and repugnant but a good defense attorney should be able to suggest it is just a freedom of speech issue and doesn't in an of itself constitute a crime.

I've also heard that the other stripper has not confirmed the incident.

Regardless of how it comes out, it's interesting that the presumption of guilt in the public was based on 1) statements by the DA and the allegations, 2) the reputation of the lacrosse team as being "trouble makers" and 3) racial tensions. It seems that prejudice follows any group and impacts perceptions of guilt and innocence.

Personally, I thought they were guilty when I first heard the story, the other allegations of bad behavior and the email. Now, I'm not so sure...

 

[OrangePappy]

Great, so the choice is to believe a story that has no DNA present to back it up which means we're saying this girl is telling a story which could destroy several lives or we can have a sacrificial lamb and destroy one guy completely. Either way inhales profusely. The e-mail was down right stupid but I don't see him falling on his sword for everybody else. IMO.

 

[hatvol96]

The DA will come after McFadyen with a conspiracy to commit murder charge, which is a Class A Felony in NC. The DA also probably has enough evidence in the email to get through a Grand Jury and conviction would probably be around a 50:50 shot.

Offering the sexual assault plea bargain, would allow the woman in question to save face, appease the constituents of Durham, make this storm pass more quickly, and keep that email from surfacing again, as it would over and over again on Sportscenter and the like during any type of arraignment and trial.

There is absolutely no way that email would get him convicted of anything. First, to have a conspiracy, you need multiple parties. Who are his co-conspirators? Bad taste and poor literary skills are not criminal conduct. Also, there's no evidence of an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.

 

[volinbham]

I've gone back and read several news stories - the email does not appear to mention this girl. It talks about some hypothetical strippers.

 

[therealUT]

There is absolutely no way that email would get him convicted of anything. First, to have a conspiracy, you need multiple parties. Who are his co-conspirators? Bad taste and poor literary skills are not criminal conduct. Also, there's no evidence of an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.

So, hypothetically speaking, if I emailed 40 of my closest friends and said, "Tonight the president will be in town again. Let's go see him again, however, this time, instead of just shaking hands with him, I am going to shoot him." You are saying charges could not be brought against me for this?

 

[GAVol]

The DA will come after McFadyen with a conspiracy to commit murder charge, which is a Class A Felony in NC. The DA also probably has enough evidence in the email to get through a Grand Jury and conviction would probably be around a 50:50 shot.

Murder?? Are you serious?

Conspiracy to commit murder based on an ambiguous e-mail that didn't mention any specific victim and was probably intended to be a joke? IMO, the kid is guilty of having poor taste and bad judgement, but that's about it.

 

[hatvol96]

So, hypothetically speaking, if I emailed 40 of my closest friends and said, "Tonight the president will be in town again. Let's go see him again, however, this time, instead of just shaking hands with him, I am going to shoot him." You are saying charges could not be brought against me for this?

There's a specific statute addressing threats against the President. What you describe is still not a conspiracy. One, just because you tell someone something doesn't make them a co-conspirator. Further, you have committed no overt act in furtherance of said conspiracy.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

I heard on ESPN radio that the nurse who did the rape kit at the hospital is saying that the alleged victim did not name anyone one report anything about Duke students when she was at the hospital. Shades of Twana Brawley here.

 

[GAVol]

Just saw a report that the DA is running in a primary election in 3 weeks. I'd bet that the case stays in a pending mode at least that long. They've now got DNA evidence exhonerating the whole team and a lynch mob that doesn't seem to care.

Maybe there's more to this than meets the eye, but the DA is starting to look shamelessly political.

 

[WA_Vol]

So, hypothetically speaking, if I emailed 40 of my closest friends and said, "Tonight the president will be in town again. Let's go see him again, however, this time, instead of just shaking hands with him, I am going to shoot him." You are saying charges could not be brought against me for this?

Of course. They have done that before to high school students, who they said were plotting to bring a gun to school because they said they wrote they wished xxx was dead.

I think they need to go ahead and plant video camera's in everyone's house so they can protect us from ourselves. Then force us to do calisthentics in the morning, for our own good. The send us political messages that we need to know about on tv and make sure we watch them. Then we could have politcal rallies every day for big brother.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

Of course. They have done that before to high school students, who they said were plotting to bring a gun to school because they said they wrote they wished xxx was dead.

I think they need to go ahead and plant video camera's in everyone's house so they can protect us from ourselves. Then force us to do calisthentics in the morning, for our own good. The send us political messages that we need to know about on tv and make sure we watch them. Then we could have politcal rallies every day for big brother.

I was thinking that we should put weights on the really athletic people so I don't feel bad for being slower or not jumping as high. We should also make the really beautiful people have cosmetic surgery to look more ordinary. Once we are all alike things will go much better for mankind. k:

 

[therealUT]

Two of the Duke lacrosse players were formally charged with rape.

 

[NeanderVol]

Two of the Duke lacrosse players were formally charged with rape.

One of them was in the class I TA'd last semester. Kinda crazy.

 

[utvolpj]

Maybe one of our resident lawyers could chime in here. From what I've heard the police are really messing this all up. One of the biggest was interviewing suspects in their dorm rooms alone, even after being advised they had lawyers. Taking evidence from the same locations, etc. Any lawyer worth his salt is going to get this thrown out.

This would be over if it wasn't an election month and the guy needed votes.

 

[NeanderVol]

Maybe one of our resident lawyers could chime in here. From what I've heard the police are really messing this all up. One of the biggest was interviewing suspects in their dorm rooms alone, even after being advised they had lawyers. Taking evidence from the same locations, etc. Any lawyer worth his salt is going to get this thrown out.

This would be over if it wasn't an election month and the guy needed votes.

On the local news here last night, they said that the police were free to talk to someone without their lawyer present as long as they had not been formally charged with anything, and at the time the police entered the dorms no charges had been filed. The police also had Duke's permission to contact the players. It's not like they broke any doors down or anything. However, I am by no means a lawyer, so read into that what you will.

 

[utvolpj]

On the local news here last night, they said that the police were free to talk to someone without their lawyer present as long as they had not been formally charged with anything, and at the time the police entered the dorms no charges had been filed. The police also had Duke's permission to contact the players. It's not like they broke any doors down or anything. However, I am by no means a lawyer, so read into that what you will.

From the accounts I read, the police were waiting outside the dorm waiting for someone to swipe their card so they could follow them in. Just sounds strange to me. Couldn't they have gotten a pass from the univ?

 

[therealUT]

From the accounts I read, the police were waiting outside the dorm waiting for someone to swipe their card so they could follow them in. Just sounds strange to me. Couldn't they have gotten a pass from the univ?

Is Duke a land-grant institution? If so, I do not believe the police need any pass or warrant on the Duke University grounds.

 

[NeanderVol]

From the accounts I read, the police were waiting outside the dorm waiting for someone to swipe their card so they could follow them in. Just sounds strange to me. Couldn't they have gotten a pass from the univ?

I'm not sure. There are a lot of conflicting reports floating around as to what exactly happened when the police entered the dorms.

Here is a story from today's Chronicle. It has a bit of a different point of view than the one taken by the local news, who definitely seem to be on the side of the prosecution.

 

[NeanderVol]

Is Duke a land-grant institution? If so, I do not believe the police need any pass or warrant on the Duke University grounds.

No. It's definitely a private institution.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

This still smells like disgusting pandering to one element of the community for political gain. If you look at the DA's quote from the meetin last week he said there is no DNA in 70-80% of sexual assault cases. The media has misquoted this as 70-80% of rape cases. You have to remember this is a lawyer and we lawyers are very careful with our words when OTJ. "Sexual assault" includes a panalopy of touching contact that falls far short of sexual penetration. Of course you are generally not going to have DNA evidence when someone gropes another person through their clothing but it is a sexual assault. Also, when the DA says that many of these cases are prosecuted without DNA evidence, he means exaclty what he says. When there is NO DNA evidence you might get a conviction based solely on witness testimony and circumstantial evidence. You generally have no shot at conviction when, as here, there IS exculpatory DNA evidence.

 

[NeanderVol]

I see you edited out the part about never visiting Durham, VH. I was working on a reply:

Durham is an interesting city. While I love the Triangle area (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill), I’m not a big fan of Durham. It reminds me of east Nashville. When I first moved here, I lived near Ninth St. in Durham for about a year and a half and hated every minute of it. As a result, I bolted to Chapel Hill and lived there for about four years. Chapel Hill is much, much nicer than Durham. I’m back in Durham now, but I’m in south Durham, which is a pretty cool area. While I’m not a fan of Durham, I’m not a big fan of Duke either. They will (hopefully) be granting me a Ph.D. in about a month, and for that, I’m grateful, but I’ve never felt at home at Duke the whole time I’ve been here. There is this air of pretentiousness that engulfs this place. Duke tries to isolate its students from “big, bad Durham.” They require students to live on campus for three of the four years that they are here, and for the most part, they have it set up where students don’t ever have to leave campus. There are even plans in the works to build a row of restaurants and bars on campus. I think a significant part of the college experience is learning how to be an adult in the real world (i.e. paying your rent on time, learning how to grocery shop on a budget, etc.), but Duke does its best to keep its students from entering the real world. All that being said, I can see why there are negative feelings in the community. Hell, I’m a Duke grad student, and I have negative feelings toward the university. Sticking with the east Nashville example, imagine if Vanderbilt was located on Shelby Avenue. I’m sure there would be some tensions there. That’s not to say that the community should be pre-judging the accused students - far from it. I just don't think that either side is completely to blame. This whole situation is a powder keg that’s been waiting for something to set it off.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

I see you edited out the part about never visiting Durham, VH.

It was probably too incendiary to leave it as it was but this kind of thing just gets my goat. IMO what is happening in Durham right now is no different than the old lynch mob mentality. Being a member of a disadvantaged group does not make someone more right than other people.