So can we revisit the Butch Davis hissy fit yet? (merged)

[iuvol2012]

Nobody is saying he was a flawless coach, or that he had an impeccable record. There just aren't too many coaches that lose a job after back-to-back 9-7 seasons. Especially in a market like Tampa. And no rational person would say he ran them into the ground.

I agree that what happened to Gruden in terms of being fired after a winning season is rare and I don't agree with him being fired for a winning season. BUT...I think that it was done based on the 4 game collapse at the end of last season and some issues with Gruden amongst the players.

 

[trevols81]

all recruiting and no coaching is such a waste of talent... hope our staff will keep us from going down that path because the sec demands good coaching in order to be on top

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

I agree that what happened to Gruden in terms of being fired after a winning season is rare and I don't agree with him being fired for a winning season. BUT...I think that it was done based on the 4 game collapse at the end of last season and some issues with Gruden amongst the players.

All you guys who think Gruden would have been a good choice should thank the good lord that didn't happen. I spent 6 yrs in Tampa Bay watching this guy destroy a great team. This would have been a complete disaster. Half the team in TB HATED him. It started out good but then it became apparent over time he was a lying, backstabbing fraud. Montes defense and the respect he commanded were the only thing that kept Gruden employed. His Offense was always CRAP. As soon as Monte said he was leaving the team Quit. There are other VN members from TB who would say the same thing.

 

[UTMark]

What makes you say that? I don't know too much about it. I was kind of surprised when he got canned. He had a winning record in Tampa (and his last 2 seasons he went 9-7 in each). They weren't "in the ground" when he left, but they sure are now. If Tampa didn't know their place in the world when they were 9-7, they definitely know it now. Historically it's a bad franchise.

He typically did not like young QB's in the NFL. He always did well with the older veterans (Brad Johnson, Rich Gannon, et al.). He would have gone bananas in college when your oldest QB is still very young and, in his eyes, very inexperienced.

 

[3L with debt]

Davis just lost to Virginia in his third year at UNC. What makes you think he would have beaten UCLA and Auburn in his second and fifth games at UT?

Because I believe that UT has comparable (or better) talent to those teams; UCLA is not a good football team; Auburn just lost to Kentucky at home; and CBD is a better coach than either CRN or Cheez-nip (Don't know his initials).

I just believe that CBD would have had more success at UT this year. I'm not making any predictions or claims beyond this year because those type of comments/claims are counter productive to what CLK is trying to build.

 

[GmanTN]

Because I believe that UT has comparable (or better) talent to those teams; UCLA is not a good football team; Auburn just lost to Kentucky at home; and CBD is a better coach than either CRN or Cheez-nip (Don't know his initials).

I just believe that CBD would have had more success at UT this year. I'm not making any predictions or claims beyond this year because those type of comments/claims are counter productive to what CLK is trying to build.

Using that sort of logic, I guess if Urban was our coach we would be undefeated huh?

 

[Vercingetorix]

Because I believe that UT has comparable (or better) talent to those teams; UCLA is not a good football team; Auburn just lost to Kentucky at home; and CBD is a better coach than either CRN or Cheez-nip (Don't know his initials).

I just believe that CBD would have had more success at UT this year. I'm not making any predictions or claims beyond this year because those type of comments/claims are counter productive to what CLK is trying to build.

But North Carolina has way better talent than Virginia, and Davis lost to them. Davis has better talent than Georgia Tech, and he wasn't even competitive with them. And this is in Davis's third year at UNC. What makes you think he'd be magically able to beat teams with equal talent at UTK, just because he's Butch Davis, when he's losing to teams with worse talent right now at UNC?

Your faith in Davis is based on what he did a dozen years ago or so at Miami. But Davis is different now -- he's only a year younger than Fulmer, after all -- and college football is different now. I wanted Davis to be our coach too, at the time, but it's clear now that Hamilton was right not to pursue him hard. What's happening in his third year in a bad conference is inexcusable for a guy who's supposed to be an elite coach.
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[tm3]

clay travis may have it right in his book after all -- i'm told that BD was never a consideration, and MH enjoyed the BD furor as it took attention away from the real candidates.

 

[feathersax]

Butch...'nuff said. Glad he's in at NC where their mascot is a (gulp) SHEEP!

 

[VolMaster14]

LMAO who was wanting Butch Davis??? The guy is old as dirt! He hasnt done anything after Miami and anyone coulda won at Miami then with the talent they had!! The day gramp's Al Davis fired CLK, I wanted him in Knoxville. Great job with this hire Mike Hamilton!!! Hope CLK is here for many many many years!!!!

 

[utmba93]

Lane Kiffin's team looks more well-coached after six games than Davis's does after three years.
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This really is extraordinary.

After seeing how difficult it is to implement a new offense last season, it is totally unreal that this staff has implemented an entirely new system in all facets of the game this quickly.

This staff is the real deal. There's no question about it.

 

[utmba93]

But North Carolina has way better talent than Virginia, and Davis lost to them. Davis has better talent than Georgia Tech, and he wasn't even competitive with them. And this is in Davis's third year at UNC. What makes you think he'd be magically able to beat teams with equal talent at UTK, just because he's Butch Davis, when he's losing to teams with worse talent right now at UNC?

Your faith in Davis is based on what he did a dozen years ago or so at Miami. But Davis is different now -- he's only a year younger than Fulmer, after all -- and college football is different now. I wanted Davis to be our coach too, at the time, but it's clear now that Hamilton was right not to pursue him hard. What's happening in his third year in a bad conference is inexcusable for a guy who's supposed to be an elite coach.
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I don't know if Davis will ever be the same man he was. I do wonder if he left part of himself in Cleveland with the Browns and all that failure. It's hard for a coach to rebound after realizing just how advanced the league is and how they just aren't all that.

 

[jed]

Well said. The drop off after Miami and Va. Tech is unbelievable . As far as Butch is concerned, the only reason I wanted him to come to UTK was to piss the tarhole fans off. Other than that I was a CBK lean.
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GT and BC are not bad teams. ACC not great but not terrible.

 

[rocky top buzz]

This is the conference Butch Davis is 0-3 in right now:

That's really not a fair point to make. First off, BC's alumni base is comparable to Vandy (although BC has a bigger stadium. VT has a sizeable fan base but you have to consider the location. Imagine If Vandy and South Carolina made it to the SECCG and it was played in Little Rock or New Orleans. How much of the fan base would pay to travel that far, also knowing they want to travel to the BCS bowl game.

The ACCCG will move to Charlotte next year, and I believe you will see it's not the conference that was the problem, it was the location.

 

[utmba93]

clay travis may have it right in his book after all -- i'm told that BD was never a consideration, and MH enjoyed the BD furor as it took attention away from the real candidates.

Hamilton is looking sweet right now.

Great move, MH!

The ACC is a joke in football.

 

[Coastypop]

I find it amazing that on the eve of the greatest win in recent Tennessee football history we argue over who should, would and could have been our coach instead of the future hall of famer we are lucky to have.... Tenneessee football is back baby

 

[Vercingetorix]

I don't know if Davis will ever be the same man he was. I do wonder if he left part of himself in Cleveland with the Browns and all that failure. It's hard for a coach to rebound after realizing just how advanced the league is and how they just aren't all that.

In a profession as physically and mentally grueling as high-level football coaching, I don't think it's possible for anyone to be the same man at 58 years old that he was was in his early to mid 40s.

Apart from that, just think about how much college football has changed since Davis was successful at Miami in the late 90s. Back then, Spurrier's Fun-N-Gun was still the most innovative offense in the country. Now you've got the spread, the wildcat, the game-changing jump ball receiver that basically didn't exist when Davis was in college before....Davis has to adapt to all this different stuff now, when he's almost 60 years old.

Assuming that Butch Davis is as great a football coach as he always was is basically the same thing as assuming that the latest Rolling Stones album is going to be awesome because "Exile On Main Street" is one of the greatest rock and roll albums ever. The world changes and people get old.

 

[jed]

In a profession as physically and mentally grueling as high-level football coaching, I don't think it's possible for anyone to be the same man at 58 years old that he was was in his early to mid 40s.

Apart from that, just think about how much college football has changed since Davis was successful at Miami in the late 90s. Back then, Spurrier's Fun-N-Gun was still the most innovative offense in the country. Now you've got the spread, the wildcat, the game-changing jump ball receiver that basically didn't exist when Davis was in college before....Davis has to adapt to all this different stuff now, when he's almost 60 years old.

Assuming that Butch Davis is as great a football coach as he always was is basically the same thing as assuming that the latest Rolling Stones album is going to be awesome because "Exile On Main Street" is one of the greatest rock and roll albums ever. The world changes and people get old.

Tom Osbourne in the 90's was considered old (I guess). How in the world could old Nebraska option and Tom ever handle all this new fangled spread stuff (we all know how that turned out). 58 is not ancient by any stretch. I mean how old is Monte? I've even heard the flip side of that argument (all about how young Lane is). I guess there comes a point when people need to quit but that age may come early for some and late for others.

 

[Vercingetorix]

That's really not a fair point to make. First off, BC's alumni base is comparable to Vandy (although BC has a bigger stadium. VT has a sizeable fan base but you have to consider the location. Imagine If Vandy and South Carolina made it to the SECCG and it was played in Little Rock or New Orleans. How much of the fan base would pay to travel that far, also knowing they want to travel to the BCS bowl game.

The ACCCG will move to Charlotte next year, and I believe you will see it's not the conference that was the problem, it was the location.

I'm not unsympathetic towards or contemptuous of the ACC in general -- I've become pretty much a Tech fan by proxy, as I have a bunch of friends here in Atlanta who are Tech alumni. I watch a crapton of ACC football. But come on, call a spade a spade -- the ACC championship game has been empty every year it's been played, including when it was Tech vs. Wake. And if the argument is that those two teams don't have a big enough fanbase to support serious college football either, then well, you're talking about at least a quarter of your conference. I agree that Charlotte is a better location for the game, but seriously, there's just no way that anyone could seriously argue that the ACC is in any way comparable to the SEC right now.

Which is why, when the circa-2009 version of Butch Davis is failing in the ACC, I can't understand the argument that he'd do even better if only he were in the tougher SEC.

 

[NighthawkVol]

Mike Leach was my top choice.
Chip Kelly was my 2nd choice. I still think Kelly will be a great catch for some big time program soon and will be considered one of the best coaches in America.

But I'm glad we got Kiffin. He truly could build a dynasty here.

 

[tidwell]

Of the candidates that were discussed at great length, whether they were seriously considered or not, my three favorites were Davis, Gruden, and Kiffin in that order. My reasoning behind having Davis first, even ahead of a Super Bowl winning coach, was that he was the most proven of the three at the collegiate level, albeit a decade ago. I honestly couldn't think of a reason why Davis wouldn't have great success at a place like UT.

However, once Kiffin was hired and his incredible staff was assembled, I immediately had no regrets about having him at UT over Davis (or anyone else). As Vercing points out, UNC's season so far obviously makes one feel even better that the Vols ended up with Kiffin and this staff rather than Davis and whatever staff he could have possibly put together.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Tom Osbourne in the 90's was considered old (I guess). How in the world could old Nebraska option and Tom ever handle all this new fangled spread stuff (we all know how that turned out). 58 is not ancient by any stretch. I mean how old is Monte? I've even heard the flip side of that argument (all about how young Lane is). I guess there comes a point when people need to quit but that age may come early for some and late for others.

Osbourne must have considered himself old, since he retired -- and he was only two years older than Davis is now. And he was walking away from decades of coasting along as the overlord of a great program. Meanwhile here's Davis, only a couple of years younger than Osbourne was when he walked away, undertaking a massive rebuild of a moribund program. An older coach can shake hands and operate as the CEO type for a long time once things are humming along, sure, but when you're actually trying to build something from the ground up at age 55 or higher, then the odds are stacked against you. The greatest CF coach of my lifetime thus far is unquestionably Spurrier, and even he couldn't get it done in his golden-years job. (And it's not like he's had good teams that just can't get past UF or UGA or something -- he can't even beat Vandy on a regular basis. Five years in a state that is fertile with high school talent, and his teams haven't even been consistently average.)

Age isn't a prison -- Saban's 57 now, in his third year at Alabama. But it's a pretty imposing probability. Hiring a 57 year old guy who took most of a decade off from coaching college football probably wouldn't have been a great risk, no matter how great his reputation was.

(As far as Monte goes -- A) he may just be one of these great older guys who keep their energy for a decade longer than most folks, and B) he's a coordinator, not the head man. All of the pressures that make it a young man's game are a lot higher on the head guy.)

 

[Vercingetorix]

Of the candidates that were discussed at great length, whether they were seriously considered or not, my three favorites were Davis, Gruden, and Kiffin in that order. My reasoning behind having Davis first, even ahead of a Super Bowl winning coach, was that he was the most proven of the three at the collegiate level, albeit a decade ago. I honestly couldn't think of a reason why Davis wouldn't have great success at a place like UT.

I thought the same thing. He was the most obvious pie-in-the-sky candidate at the time, for the reason you suggest: how could he NOT win at UTK? At the time all this was going on last year, Davis was something like 7-2 at UNC and it looked like they were on the elevator up. (And then they wet the bed against a couple of crappy teams, and suddenly the UNC ascension didn't seem so inevitable.)

I didn't start the thread to call out people who wanted Davis in the first place -- because, heck I was one of them -- but rather the people who whinged all spring and summer about how Hamilton was basically incompetent by not somehow doing everything to get him. They looked at the staff Kiffin assembled, and they saw the ad hoc recruiting class they put together in just a couple of months, and they saw the offseason of no arrests and the change in the football culture at UT -- and still they complained because it should have been Davis, Davis, Davis. And now Davis is in his third year in a bad conference, and his season is already cooked in mid-October.

He truly could build a dynasty here.

Agreed, but considering that he'd never even been in Knoxville before taking the job, I can't imagine that he sees himself finishing out his career here. I assume he's ambitious and will want another NFL job. Or maybe the USC job, after Pete Carroll leaves. Regardless, he's not going to realize those ambitions unless he has the sort of success at UT that will cause us all to wish him well and thank him for what he's accomplished. He's not going to get an NFL- or a USC-caliber job by going 9-3 and playing in the Steakhouse Bowl every year.

 

[3L with debt]

Using that sort of logic, I guess if Urban was our coach we would be undefeated huh?

I guess you missed the part about comparable talent...

 

[3L with debt]

But North Carolina has way better talent than Virginia, and Davis lost to them. Davis has better talent than Georgia Tech, and he wasn't even competitive with them. And this is in Davis's third year at UNC. What makes you think he'd be magically able to beat teams with equal talent at UTK, just because he's Butch Davis, when he's losing to teams with worse talent right now at UNC?

Your faith in Davis is based on what he did a dozen years ago or so at Miami.

I wanted Davis to be our coach too, at the time, but it's clear now that Hamilton was right not to pursue him hard.

What's happening in his third year in a bad conference is inexcusable for a guy who's supposed to be an elite coach.
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Well, yes.

I agree that his results are not that fantastic but I still think he is a great coach. I never thought he was an elite coach. (From what I can tell, there are only two of those elite types and they are both in this conference.)

You could very well be right about CBD but at the time of the coaching search, it would be hard to dismiss CBD as the best person for the job. My comments at that time simply reflect that belief. I am not calling for him to be the HC now but simply responding to your thread as one of those who had a hissy fit then.

I have enjoyed the discussion though.