So can we revisit the Butch Davis hissy fit yet? (merged)

#101
#101
tvolsfan said:
Gruden would be an excellent recruiter, unless he smiply did not try at all.
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I have my doubts on this. I think you need to look past the Super Bowl ring and focus on his personality. The guy was not very good at developing talent. He relied on an awesome defense and top notch pro vets .
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#102
#102
tvolsfan said:
I think showing recruits his super bowl ring would make them forget about other problems.
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You lose the respect of a player and that ring don't mean a thing. Gruden would fail at the college level from lack of patience.
 
#103
#103
VolinConcord said:
I have my doubts on this. I think you need to look past the Super Bowl ring and focus on his personality. The guy was not very good at developing talent. He relied on an awesome defense and top notch pro vets .
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I don't think most NFL coaches focus on devoloping the talent. If you're in the NFL, you probably shouldn't have to develop too many players. You have to get them ready to play. Gruden improved Oakland a lot in his time there and won the Super Bowl in Tampa his first year. Tampa declined, but they weren't awful, although they are now now that Gruden is gone. I have no doubt Gruden could get college kids to play good football.
 
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#104
#104
tvolsfan said:
I don't think most NFL coaches focus on devoloping the talent. If you're in the NFL, you probably shouldn't have to develop too many players. You have to get them ready to play. Gruden improved Oakland a lot in his time there and won the Super Bowl in Tampa his first year. Tamap declined, but they weren't awful, although they are now now that Gruden is gone. I have no doubt Gruden could get college kids to play good football.
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What is your basis for the fact that NFL coaches don't have to develop talent? So nobody in the NFL has made Joe Flacco better since year 1? Nobody in the NFL made Matt Ryan better since year 1?
 
#105
#105
braths said:
What is your basis for the fact that NFL coaches don't have to develop talent? So nobody in the NFL has made Joe Flacco better since year 1? Nobody in the NFL made Matt Ryan better since year 1?
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I'm not saying no one improves, but if you're an NFL head coach, you're probably working with players who are already developed. Players can be drafted based on upside, and they can improve, but they don't need to develop the way college players do.
 
#106
#106
tvolsfan said:
I don't think most NFL coaches focus on devoloping the talent. If you're in the NFL, you probably shouldn't have to develop too many players. You have to get them ready to play. Gruden improved Oakland a lot in his time there and won the Super Bowl in Tampa his first year. Tamap declined, but they weren't awful, although they are now now that Gruden is gone. I have no doubt Gruden could get college kids to play good football.
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Believe me, when the Gruden rumor was lighting this board up like a pinball machine, I was geared up to bring him to the Hill. But after further research and listening to W. Sapp and other players, I came to the conclusion that he would not be a good fit.
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#107
#107
tvolsfan said:
I'm not saying no one improves, but if you're an NFL head coach, you're probably working with players who are already developed. Players can be drafted based on upside, and they can improve, but they don't need to develop the way college players do.
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Not true at all. Players ALWAYS have to improve because someone behind them is waiting to take their starting job if they don't improve.
 
#108
#108
braths said:
Not true at all. Players ALWAYS have to improve because someone behind them is waiting to take their starting job if they don't improve.
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You can improve by practicing and playing. It doesn't mean the coach should have to teach the game to pros.
 
#109
#109
tvolsfan said:
You can improve by practicing and playing. It doesn't mean the coach should have to teach the game to pros.
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True, they shouldn't. But coaches are hired and paid to teach the game and how they want their team to play football. That is what coaches do.
 
#110
#110
If Gruden wasn't capable of having the team play the way he wanted them to, then he probably wouldn't have won a super bowl at 39.
 
#111
#111
braths said:
I tend to disagree with that analysis. The fact that Gruden only had three winning seasons in the six years following the Super Bowl and ZERO playoff wins in that timeframe suggests that those problems that you call inconsequential were actually quite a big deal.
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Yet Kiffin's NFL track record hasn't impeded his recruiting.
 
#113
#113
tvolsfan said:
If Gruden wasn't capable of having the team play the way he wanted them to, then he probably wouldn't have won a super bowl at 39.
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Kinda delusional, aren't you? One SB ring doesn't mean you have a sense of entitlement. Tony Dungy won a Super Bowl ring and he didn't act entitled. Mike Shanahan, Bill Belicheck, Bill Cowher, etc. I could go on and on about guys who didn't act as if they were entitled. As much as I like Gruden, he quit coaching after that Super Bowl win because he felt that he was entitled, which destroyed that Bucs organization.
 
#114
#114
nbakerld said:
Yet Kiffin's NFL track record hasn't impeded his recruiting.
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1) It was AL DAVIS that he was working for and everyone knows how delusional he is.

2) The Glazers are NOT delusional and Gruden ran that organization into the ground, which Kiffin really didn't do in Oakland because Davis did that for him.
 
#115
#115
braths said:
Kinda delusional, aren't you? One SB ring doesn't mean you have a sense of entitlement. Tony Dungy won a Super Bowl ring and he didn't act entitled. Mike Shanahan, Bill Belicheck, Bill Cowher, etc. I could go on and on about guys who didn't act as if they were entitled. As much as I like Gruden, he quit coaching after that Super Bowl win because he felt that he was entitled, which destroyed that Bucs organization.
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All those coaches you listed were good coaches. He's in good company. And you must know him very well personally to determine he quit coaching because of his misplaced sense of entitlement.
 
#116
#116
braths said:
1) It was AL DAVIS that he was working for and everyone knows how delusional he is.

2) The Glazers are NOT delusional and Gruden ran that organization into the ground, which Kiffin really didn't do in Oakland because Davis did that for him.
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Gruden had great success in Oakland under Al Davis.
 
#117
#117
tvolsfan said:
All those coaches you listed were good coaches. He's in good company. And you must know him very well personally to determine he quit coaching because of his misplaced sense of entitlement.
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I never have claimed to meet him, and do NOT know him personally at all, but how else do you explain that team's downfall? I would like to know.
 
#118
#118
braths said:
I never have claimed to meet him, and do NOT know him personally at all, but how else do you explain that team's downfall? I would like to know.
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All those veterans you said he won with got old. He got them to play well, but they couldn't keep it up forever.
 
#120
#120
tvolsfan said:
All those veterans you said he won with got old. He got them to play well, but they couldn't keep it up forever.
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Yeah, that would be where the development element of the job comes in. As the veterans leave, you have to train the younger players that you draft and/or sign to fill those starting spots. The NFL is much faster than college in terms of game speed. You don't just plug an untrained guy in there and turn him loose. He has to learn first.
 
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#121
#121
braths said:
Yeah, that would be where the development element of the job comes in. As the veterans leave, you have to train the younger players that you draft and/or sign to fill those positions. The NFL is much faster than college in terms of game speed. You don't just plug an untrained guy in there and turn him loose. He has to learn first.
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You have to have good players to win in the NFL, period. Why isn't the new guy dominating in Tampa?
 
#122
#122
braths said:
Yeah, that would be where the development element of the job comes in. As the veterans leave, you have to train the younger players that you draft and/or sign to fill those starting spots. The NFL is much faster than college in terms of game speed. You don't just plug an untrained guy in there and turn him loose. He has to learn first.
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Show me a top quality QB that Tampa drafted?
 
#123
#123
braths said:
1) It was AL DAVIS that he was working for and everyone knows how delusional he is.

2) The Glazers are NOT delusional and Gruden ran that organization into the ground, which Kiffin really didn't do in Oakland because Davis did that for him.
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1) Gruden won in Oakland

2) The Glazer's had back to back 9-7 seasons with Gruden and now they are 0-6. Al Davis has 2 wins I believe. Man, Gruden really ran them into the ground. He's laughing at you and the Glazers right about now.
 
#125
#125
tvolsfan said:
You have to have good players to win in the NFL, period. Why isn't the new guy dominating in Tampa?
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He doesn't have good players. Why doesn't he have good players? Because they weren't coached. Further proof that NFL coaches DO have to develop talent, even if they were four year starters in college.
 
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