So, what are you doing on May 21?

#76
#76
The words to one of my favorite hymns sums this up quite nicely I think.

Careless soul, O heed the warning,
for your life will soon be gone.
O how sad to face the judgement,
unprepared to meet thy God...

Whether you choose to believe or not is your own business, that's between you and God. Just think about this though, what if you choose to believe that God doesn't exist...and you're wrong...
 
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#77
#77
The words to one of my favorite hymns sums this up quite nicely I think.

Careless soul, O heed the warning,
for your life will soon be gone.
O how sad to face the judgement,
unprepared to meet thy God...

Whether you choose to believe or not is your own business, that's between you and God. Just think about this though, what if you choose to believe that God doesn't exist...and you're wrong...

Blaise Pascal?
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#79
#79
No, but I could certainly see how you could draw that conclusion. The similarities are many.

It's the exact philosophical question he asked. Nothing new. It's like what if Allah or Odin or Ra were real, then you'd be sorry.
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#81
#81
Pascal's question was only intended for those who were facing indecision on whether or not to commit their life to Christianity or to walk away.

His position is tenuous at best, as for his game theory the only possibilities seem to be: 1. There is no God; 2. There is a God and it is the Christian God.

Therefore, his assumption that one is better off just choosing the Christian God, errs in that he leaves off the possibility of upsetting other gods and risking eternal damnation.
 
#82
#82
And what do you think about that?

I'm apathetic. There's no proof of god or against god. I'm de facto atheist which means I don't know but I'm inclined to believe there is no god.

So, are you strict theist or de facto theist.?
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#83
#83
I'm apathetic. There's no proof of god or against god. I'm de facto atheist which means I don't know but I'm inclined to believe there is no god.

So, are you strict theist or de facto theist.?
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Well, there are some good philosophical proofs for the existence of a god. However, getting to which god requires revelation, according to every major religion. Hence, that is suprarational.

However, for the best proofs, IMO, on the existence of god look to Duns Scotus, Descartes, and Locke.
 
#84
#84
I'm apathetic. There's no proof of god or against god. I'm de facto atheist which means I don't know but I'm inclined to believe there is no god.

So, are you strict theist or de facto theist.?
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I'm inclined to believe that there is.
 
#86
#86
No. The Gospel of Matthew and Luke-Acts have unknown authorship. Christian theologians have admitted this for centuries.
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The majority believe that Matthew wrote Matthew and that Luke wrote Lukes and Acts.
 
#87
#87
The majority believe that Matthew wrote Matthew and that Luke wrote Lukes and Acts.

Maybe the majority of your congregation. However, since Catholics comprise the overwhelming majority of Christians, and were the ones who compiled and retained the Bible for twelve hundred years prior to the Reformation, I would say that you are dead wrong in your assertion.

Pick up a Catholic Bible and read the prefaces to Matthew, Luke, and Luke-Acts.
 
#88
#88
In the end it's all philosophical.
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In the end... yes. It is ALL philosophical.

Everyone premises what their worldview off of one of three unprovable, unfalsifiable presuppositions: Only material things are real, only spiritual/immaterial (consciousness, intelligence, thought imagination, a spirit god) things are real, both immaterial and material things are real.

Supernaturalism seems to be easily the most reasonable to me... but it is also the most difficult.
 
#89
#89
Maybe the majority of your congregation. However, since Catholics comprise the overwhelming majority of Christians, and were the ones who compiled and retained the Bible for twelve hundred years prior to the Reformation, I would say that you are dead wrong in your assertion.

Pick up a Catholic Bible and read the prefaces to Matthew, Luke, and Luke-Acts.

Beliefs about the authors pre-date Constantine. Most non-Catholics point to him as the beginning of the RCC. Catholics of course try to co-opt the "catholic" (lower case c) church of the first 3 centuries... though the writings from that period clearly differ from RCC doctrines that developed after Constantine.

Moreover, it is not accurate to say that the RCC compiled and retained the Bible for 1200 years. The best witnesses we have from that period come from the Orthodox Church and various others. The RCC largely used and reproduced Latin versions for most of that period.

Finally, define "Christian". Is it just a label or are there qualifiers? If there are qualifiers then where do they come from and if those sources disagree which ones have final authority?

If I am a Christian by definition then a Catholic who believes in the soteriological doctrines of the RCC is not. If he is then I am not. We fundamentally believe that different things lead to salvation. We have mutually exclusive views on how redemption, grace, faith, etc work in Christ. In many respects, we don't even accept the same definitions for those words.

I am not being hateful... just saying that words have meanings.
 
#90
#90
Moreover, it is not accurate to say that the RCC compiled and retained the Bible for 1200 years. The best witnesses we have from that period come from the Orthodox Church and various others. The RCC largely used and reproduced Latin versions for most of that period.

It is certainly accurate to state that at the Council of Nicea, the Christian Bible was formally compiled. I did not use the word "written" for good measure.

If you want to go forth and claim that the best witnesses from that period come from the Orthodox Church, then I am at a loss. At that time, 325 AD, there was no Orthodox Church. There was Christianity. This religion was administered through the Pope, in Rome, at the time. It was not until the Great Schism of the 11th Century, that there became a formal split between Rome and Constantinople.

Finally, define "Christian". Is it just a label or are there qualifiers? If there are qualifiers then where do they come from and if those sources disagree which ones have final authority?

If I am a Christian by definition then a Catholic who believes in the soteriological doctrines of the RCC is not. If he is then I am not. We fundamentally believe that different things lead to salvation. We have mutually exclusive views on how redemption, grace, faith, etc work in Christ. In many respects, we don't even accept the same definitions for those words.

For the first fifteen hundred years of Christianity, Christianity was used to refer to the Catholic Church. I find it laughable that you think that in a little over four hundred years the Protestant Reformers can feel that they are righteously stating that they are Christians while Catholics are not.

Your history as well as your philology are egregiously skewed in this discussion.
 
#91
#91
To h$ll with this guy, give me the guy that is giving away 72 Virgins.

Here you go:

Comic-Con-Landscape-web.jpg


ComicCon.
 
#92
#92
It is certainly accurate to state that at the Council of Nicea, the Christian Bible was formally compiled. I did not use the word "written" for good measure.
Catholics of course paint that as a "Catholic" endeavor while non-Catholics recognize it as a voluntary meeting of significant church leaders... IOW's, a "small c" catholic gathering.

Regardless of what you believe about the RCC and its beginnings, there was no ecclesiastical order similar to the RCC's before Constantine. That order devloped rapidly after him.

FWIW, Constantine's views on salvation were highly unorthodox and unbiblical.

If you want to go forth and claim that the best witnesses from that period come from the Orthodox Church, then I am at a loss. At that time, 325 AD, there was no Orthodox Church. There was Christianity. This religion was administered through the Pope, in Rome, at the time.
No. It simply wasn't. That is revisionist history and even honest Catholic historians consider it as such. The church was not organized around Rome prior to Constantine and certainly wasn't directed from there.

Therefore it does not hold that the early witnesses were created or maintained by the Catholic Church. Many if not most of those earliest mss (before 700 AD) were distributed from or find their roots in Alexandria which really didn't fall under Rome at any point.

The Byzantine mss which come mostly after the split in the 8th century come via the Orthodox Church.
It was not until the Great Schism of the 11th Century, that there became a formal split between Rome and Constantinople.
There was effective division of leadership by the 700's with various periods of unsettled reunification.

For the first fifteen hundred years of Christianity, Christianity was used to refer to the Catholic Church.
Not an answer to the question. Answer the very simple question. How is "Christian" defined and what is the final authority in establishing what a Christian is?

I find it laughable that you think that in a little over four hundred years the Protestant Reformers can feel that they are righteously stating that they are Christians while Catholics are not.
Even Catholic authorities acknowledge a continuum of dissenters (also called heretics) existed from the very start of the RCC.

But I didn't say that Catholics are not. I said simply that one term cannot accurately describe two groups with mutually exclusive opinions about the work and person of Jesus Christ. If Catholicism best meets the biblical definition of "Christian" then the title is yours. If not....

Your history as well as your philology are egregiously skewed in this discussion.

Making declarations is not the same as providing proof. You have heard and believed the RCC version of church history... I've heard it as well. It is generally scrubbed clean to affirm the dogma that RCC is the "true" church. The bottom line problem for that idea is that the early church "pre-Nicean" doesn't bear much of a doctrinal resemblance to the RCC that began to evolve after Constantine.

The more the "church" was disorganized from a human standpoint and made up of local congregations operating autonomously under local leaders and Christ... the more biblical the "church" was. When the "Church" began to organize under men... it became much less biblical.
 
#93
#93
Christian: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

That encapsulates Catholics, Protestants, and the Orthodox Church.
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#94
#94
Christian: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

That encapsulates Catholics, Protestants, and the Orthodox Church.
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So if Jesus says you must be "born again" without any allusion or mention of baptism, Mary, sacraments, confession, membership in the RCC, acceptance of the papacy, prayer to saints, acts of pennance,... then that simple but comprehensive thing makes one a Christian, correct?

FTR, Jesus Himself repeatedly said that professions were not sufficient. Paul warned against those who would offer doctrines that went past his and the Apostles'. Christ nor any of the Apostles ever taught "big tent" Christianity.

A Christian is not defined by being a member of any earthly "church". It certainly isn't defined by professing belief in the "teachings" of Christ. Christ was not some guru. He was a substitute sacrifice.

It IS repentance from sin and acceptance of the person of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior... saved by grace through faith. The Person saves, not the teachings.
 
#95
#95
So if Jesus says you must be "born again" without any allusion or mention of baptism, Mary, sacraments, confession, membership in the RCC, acceptance of the papacy, prayer to saints, acts of pennance,... then that simple but comprehensive thing makes one a Christian, correct?

You've just done my work for me. I no longer need to prove that you have an intolerable ignorance of everything Roman Catholic.
 
#96
#96
You've just done my work for me. I no longer need to prove that you have an intolerable ignorance of everything Roman Catholic.

What, by asking you a question?

Why avoid the question?

Correct me. Are you saying the RCC does not teach baptismal regeneration? That Mary is not considered a co-redemptrix? That the sacraments of the RCC are not considered salvific? That confession to a priest is not considered necessary for salvation? That the official position of the RCC is that they are the "true" church and membership is necessary for salvation (whom you will bind...)?

Are you saying that the RCC would accept as "saved" someone who rejected the Pope and church commanded pennance without qualification?
 
#97
#97
So if Jesus says you must be "born again" without any allusion or mention of baptism, Mary, sacraments, confession, membership in the RCC, acceptance of the papacy, prayer to saints, acts of pennance,... then that simple but comprehensive thing makes one a Christian, correct?

You've just done my work for me. I no longer need to prove that you have an intolerable ignorance of everything Roman Catholic.

What, by asking you a question?

Why avoid the question?

Correct me. Are you saying the RCC does not teach baptismal regeneration? That Mary is not considered a co-redemptrix? That the sacraments of the RCC are not considered salvific? That confession to a priest is not considered necessary for salvation? That the official position of the RCC is that they are the "true" church and membership is necessary for salvation (whom you will bind...)?

Are you saying that the RCC would accept as "saved" someone who rejected the Pope and church commanded pennance without qualification?

The RCC sees "sacraments" as simply an outward sign symbolizing an event that has already taken place within. This is why the RCC recognizes different forms of baptism, to include "baptism by the spirit" for persons who are never formally baptized.

Mary is not considered a co-redemptrix. Prayers through Mary and through the Saints are intercessory. Neither Mary, nor the Saints, have any power whatsoever to redeem or save a soul.

Confessing to a priest is not a necessary prerequisite for salvation.

One does not have to be a member of the RCC, or any other Christian church, to achieve eternal salvation. This includes accepting the primacy of the pope: see St. Thomas Aquinas' writings on the supremacy of conscience.
 
#98
#98
Catholics also believe that you only go to hell if you reject god when in his presence. A little more forgiving than some on this site.
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#99
#99
The RCC sees "sacraments" as simply an outward sign symbolizing an event that has already taken place within. This is why the RCC recognizes different forms of baptism, to include "baptism by the spirit" for persons who are never formally baptized.
Is that the official doctrine of the church? I have heard from both current and former catholics that it is not.

Mary is not considered a co-redemptrix. Prayers through Mary and through the Saints are intercessory. Neither Mary, nor the Saints, have any power whatsoever to redeem or save a soul.
This is inaccurate then?

Mary - Coredemptrix Explained

Confessing to a priest is not a necessary prerequisite for salvation.
Not my point though. Is it a part of the RCC's doctrine on progressive salvation?

As you know, Baptists believe that all of a person's sins are forgiven at the moment of conversion- past and future. The RCC teaches according to what I have read and been told that Christ's death makes a means for salvation but sins, particularly ones after conversion, must be paid for by the individual thus the doctrines of confession, pennance, and purgatory.

One does not have to be a member of the RCC, or any other Christian church, to achieve eternal salvation. This includes accepting the primacy of the pope: see St. Thomas Aquinas' writings on the supremacy of conscience.

Rather than trying to give you all the links maybe just do a Yahoo search of "Catholic exclusivity" to get started.

I absolutely agree with your point here btw and am very glad to see you state it. But the Catholic church officially held an exclusivity view for centuries. In that time they persecuted and even killed those they considered heretics.

I do not personally believe all Catholics are lost. I do believe that those who believe their salvation is derived from nothing more nor less than repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are saved.
 
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Catholics also believe that you only go to hell if you reject god when in his presence. A little more forgiving than some on this site.
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Really? Can you cite a source for that?

I'm not being smart... I have just never seen that claimed a RCC doctrine of belief.

If it is in fact their view then it runs in direct contradiction to the teachings of the NT.

You aren't arguing with "some on this site" concerning that issue. I have no power to condemn or save. You are arguing with the clear teachings of the NT. I can provide references if you care to look at them.

Just a side question, if you have to be in God's presence to reject Him and be lost... then pretty much everyone is saved, right? Imagine the scene: "Well Mr Hitler, would you like to receive me and enter into eternal bliss.... or over here we have the alternate fate of burning eternally in a lake of fire without relief."

For that matter, what was Christ's death all about or our temporal lives? If all we really have to do is die and choose to go to heaven then the god you've constructed truly is cruel. Jesus suffered needlessly and we suffer in life for absolutely no reason.
 
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