Some Good Old-Fashioned Gun Ownership...

#26
#26
hn, you frame the issue incorrectly, and I almost think it is intentional. It is not what percentage of guns in the country are misused. Rather, it is a comparison between the number used in legitimate self defense versus the number abused so as to kill or harm innocent victims or even the owners themselves.

The numbers are so skewed in the direction of abuse that we at this point can conclude, rather easily, that the claim of the NRA and the gun businesses that we need guns to remain so easily accessible "for safety's sake" is a bald-faced lie.

Overall, handguns make us all much, much more unsafe.

And its not even close.

There have been a slew of studies to try to estimate how many DGU's (Defensive Gun Uses) there are a year. As far as I know the lowest number ever set forth by anyone (we're talking the East German Olympic judge here) with any cred at all is '93's National Crime Victimization Survey. This extreme (low side) outlier still estimated 108,000 DGU's annually. Other studies quickly jump to 800K and up.

The other thing I always find interesting about your stance (and others like you) is to point out the more violence there might be committed by the "bad guys" the harder they want to push legislation that overwhelmingly (and by definition) would act to disarm the "good guys".
 
#28
#28
hypothetical scenario for LG

bad guy breaks into the house of a gun owner while gun owner is asleep, bad buy uses gun owner's legally purchased handgun to kill gun owner while he sleeps. Bad guy doesn't know it, but he tripped a silent alarm, and when he leaves the house, he is immediately arrested and taken into custody.

using your tortured logic, the gun owner (now deceased) would have to be charged posthumously in his own murder. Does this mean the bad guy goes free? Does your bias against legal gun ownership extend so far that you'll excuse real criminal behavior?

I've just entered the matrix
 
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#29
#29
I don't know a soul who belongs to any sort of official state militia. Do you?

At the time, the colonies had fought largely organized as state militias because, by definition, they had not had any sort of state sanctioned military or independent police force. Much of their focus was on preserving their arms and ammunition because that was such a target of the British in the Revolutionary War.

Naturally, they feared giving to the new federal government the same power that had been attempted to be exercised against them by King George and British Parliament.

Viewed through the lens of modern America, I simply cannot equate those concerns with anything today. Only complete a-hole nutjobs think they need to keep a gun to fend off the federal government. They might trot that out there to wrap themselves in the flag, but they are mostly liars and vigilante types.

Having said that, this means only that I do not attach to the Second Amendment some type of carte blanche authorization for people to have any gun they damn well please. Rather, I think it means that a state can maintain a store of arms for purposes of fending off any sort of federal government military incursion into the homes of their citizens, a rare and obsolete worry, to be sure.

As to private citizens, therefore, I see no Constitutional restriction on a state's ability to restrict individual gun ownership. Therefore, I would say that a state government should be permitted to bar private ownership of firearms or, much more likely, restrict ownership severely.

I think that, in the case of handguns, there is a legitimate debate to be had in any given state as to whether private ownership of them should be permitted basically at all.

I tend to think all states would allow it, as it would be incredibly politically unpopular at the current time to ban them. But, I could see a lot of states over time adopting measures that might make it much more difficult to own one. And in my view that would not violate the Second Amendment.

Since the state militias were essentially the armed forces at the time the constitution was adopted, then what this argument boils down to is:

We think we should make it part of our constitution that the army should be allowed to have guns and congress can't tell the army it can't have guns. - founding fathers

That just doesn't hold water.
 
#31
#31
I don't know a soul who belongs to any sort of official state militia. Do you?

At the time, the colonies had fought largely organized as state militias because, by definition, they had not had any sort of state sanctioned military or independent police force. Much of their focus was on preserving their arms and ammunition because that was such a target of the British in the Revolutionary War.

Naturally, they feared giving to the new federal government the same power that had been attempted to be exercised against them by King George and British Parliament.

Viewed through the lens of modern America, I simply cannot equate those concerns with anything today. Only complete a-hole nutjobs think they need to keep a gun to fend off the federal government. They might trot that out there to wrap themselves in the flag, but they are mostly liars and vigilante types.

Having said that, this means only that I do not attach to the Second Amendment some type of carte blanche authorization for people to have any gun they damn well please. Rather, I think it means that a state can maintain a store of arms for purposes of fending off any sort of federal government military incursion into the homes of their citizens, a rare and obsolete worry, to be sure.

As to private citizens, therefore, I see no Constitutional restriction on a state's ability to restrict individual gun ownership. Therefore, I would say that a state government should be permitted to bar private ownership of firearms or, much more likely, restrict ownership severely.

I think that, in the case of handguns, there is a legitimate debate to be had in any given state as to whether private ownership of them should be permitted basically at all.

I tend to think all states would allow it, as it would be incredibly politically unpopular at the current time to ban them. But, I could see a lot of states over time adopting measures that might make it much more difficult to own one. And in my view that would not violate the Second Amendment.

My grandfather is in tenn. State militia. It is called Tennessee Defense Force. I honestly don't know a single human being that is against private citizens having firearms (except you). I bet you are the picturebook definition of a sissie. For the love of pete. Are you a lawyer and a Gators fan too? I actually dislike everything I know about you. I bet I'm not alone in that.
 
#32
#32
My grandfather is in tenn. State militia. It is called Tennessee Defense Force. I honestly don't know a single human being that is against private citizens having firearms (except you). I bet you are the picturebook definition of a sissie. For the love of pete. Are you a lawyer and a Gators fan too? I actually dislike everything I know about you. I bet I'm not alone in that.

have you lived in the northeast or the west coast? from experience, I can confidently say that LG's opinion has support. crazy, I know.
 
#34
#34
What drives me crazy is LG will not acknowledge the "bad" guys get the majority of their weapons through straw purchases or guns brought in from other countries.

Instead he attacks the legally bought crowd, makes you wonder.
 
#35
#35
And just so there's no impression that the OP is some fluke incident:

Homeowner Shoots, Kills Suspected Home Intruder - NewsChannel5.com | Nashville News, Weather & Sports

Police: 2 killed in Jacksonville robbery attempt | BlueRidgeNow.com

Homeowner Shoots Pedregosa Street Prowler The Santa Barbara Independent

Trevor Garms, 18, shot and killed by homeowner during home invasion | Plog

Homeowner shoots accused burglar | cleveland.com

Make note of the fact that the oldest of these is from only two weeks ago. Also realize that to think this is even close to all the examples that are actually out there would be nuts.

Real people use guns to defend themselves all...the...time.
 
#36
#36
And just so there's no impression that the OP is some fluke incident:

Homeowner Shoots, Kills Suspected Home Intruder - NewsChannel5.com | Nashville News, Weather & Sports

Police: 2 killed in Jacksonville robbery attempt | BlueRidgeNow.com

Homeowner Shoots Pedregosa Street Prowler The Santa Barbara Independent

Trevor Garms, 18, shot and killed by homeowner during home invasion | Plog

Homeowner shoots accused burglar | cleveland.com

Make note of the fact that the oldest of these is from only two weeks ago. Also realize that to think this is even close to all the examples that are actually out there would be nuts.

Real people use guns to defend themselves all...the...time.



TL;dr

But pick up your local paper in any given week and see how many there are on the flip side.
 
#37
#37
My grandfather is in tenn. State militia. It is called Tennessee Defense Force. I honestly don't know a single human being that is against private citizens having firearms (except you). I bet you are the picturebook definition of a sissie. For the love of pete. Are you a lawyer and a Gators fan too? I actually dislike everything I know about you. I bet I'm not alone in that.


I tried to find a website or reference to the "Tennessee State Militia" as having some sort of official connection to state government or even some sort of sanction as representing the state at some level but could not find anything.

Is that organization real? Or is it some sort of stew of redneck rebels, Klan members, Glen Beck apocalypse loons, and maybe some paintball geeks?

I'll bet over half their members wear camouflage baseball caps, including at the mall. Got to blend in with the Macy's sales stuff. Those guys crack me up.
 
#38
#38
the state militia. ha! Didn't the Nebraska militia invade Canada? If I remember correctly, they can be found splattered all around corn field in Canada. Killed by Dudley Doright. Embarrassing.
 
#39
#39
TL;dr

But pick up your local paper in any given week and see how many there are on the flip side.

Absolutely. Now imagine if the ONLY side of that coin were the stories you referenced. The "bad guys" will get guns because they aren't interested in abiding the law. Is your plan to disarm the good guys? If so, not interested.

This one isn't that new but boy, I imagine it'd have been a wonderful night for this lady and her son if they hadn't been armed. A whole house to rob but no, they wanted into the bedroom.

Three held in Palmview home invasion : News : ValleyCentral.com
 
#40
#40
LG's whole argument centers around removing fault from criminals. Always good for a laugh when he enters a gun thread.
 
#41
#41
LG's whole argument centers around removing fault from criminals. Always good for a laugh when he enters a gun thread.


Actually, it is largely based on preventing the criminals from getting guns in the first place, which they frequently do now by stealing them from everyone else.
 
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#42
#42
I tried to find a website or reference to the "Tennessee State Militia" as having some sort of official connection to state government or even some sort of sanction as representing the state at some level but could not find anything.

Is that organization real? Or is it some sort of stew of redneck rebels, Klan members, Glen Beck apocalypse loons, and maybe some paintball geeks?

I'll bet over half their members wear camouflage baseball caps, including at the mall. Got to blend in with the Macy's sales stuff. Those guys crack me up.

I own a camo UT hat and support the right to bear arms. Watch out everyone! I'm a redneck rebel, Klan member, and Glen Beck apocalypse loon!
 
#43
#43
I own a camo UT hat and support the right to bear arms. Watch out everyone! I'm a redneck rebel, Klan member, and Glen Beck apocalypse loon!


Camo UT hat is different. I mean, sure, its totally gay, but its not like you wear it to your pretend Civil War, Part Deux practice, right?
 
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#45
#45
Actually, it is largely based on preventing the criminals from getting guns in the first place, which they frequently do now by stealing them from everyone else.

they are criminals and it seems even you can recognize that fact. What you wish to do is prosecute the people that do things legally. How you can't see that is backwards is beyond me

A gun argument from a guy that couldn't tell an airsoft from a Howitzer is just funny
 
#46
#46
they are criminals and it seems even you can recognize that fact. What you wish to do is prosecute the people that do things legally. How you can't see that is backwards is beyond me

A gun argument from a guy that couldn't tell an airsoft from a Howitzer is just funny


It's a very complicated problem and so I am not surprised that you cannot grasp the reasoning behind the only rational solution. Requires honest and objective thought and you are not there, yet. S'ok
 
#47
#47
Actually, it is largely based on preventing the criminals from getting guns in the first place, which they frequently do now by stealing them from everyone else.

You are wrong, straw purchases and smuggled guns are how criminals overwhelmingly get their weapons.
 
#49
#49
It's a very complicated problem and so I am not surprised that you cannot grasp the reasoning behind the only rational solution. Requires honest and objective thought and you are not there, yet. S'ok

:lol: it actually has to do with holding criminals accountable for their actions. Something most lawyers are not concerned with

since you're the only person I've seen push this agenda does that mean you're the only one with honest and objective thought?
 
#50
#50
You are wrong, straw purchases and smuggled guns are how criminals overwhelmingly get their weapons.

Even assuming he managed to grasp this we're talking about someone who seems quite at ease with the idea of making victims of a crime de facto criminals for the later acts of same/other criminals. It's nuts.
 

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