Special Dispensation to Punch Your Children

Good morals are human nature. We don't need religious texts to tell us murder, theft, perjury etc is wrong. No religious justification is needed to make the morality argument here.

However, we do need religious texts to tell us things like blasphemy, homosexuality, sabbath, and a host of other make believe crimes actually matter when they really don't. I could use the lords name in vain every day of my life and never hurt another human being. The only definition by which I am being immoral by doing so...or homosexuality matters is because of religious texts.

Not that it matters to you, but the Bible tells us that the only "nature" that God instilled in us is a sin nature.
There are MANY in this world, civalized and not, that would argue with you about murder, theft and perjury being morally wrong.

I adopted a young man that does not care that any of those things, along with lying and cheating and touching females without permission is wrong.

I have no issue with what a state passes or does not pass. My point is that the Christians take too much "blame" for the things that the non-christians don't want to pass.
 
just can't say it's completely disconnected that the US economy is tanking while our elected leaders continue to focus on gay marriage and abortion. Of course NC sent Shuler to congress so I'm not really surprised

I would contend that the ecomony is tanking in part BECAUSE of the "push" of the gay community to be recognized which draws the attention of our leaders away from the economy.......I mean, how dare they want equal rights, right? If they would just shut-up and go back in the closet, the economy would BOOM again.





















Attn: Please make sure your sarcasm meters are on and in working order.
 
Religious activists who want their particular interpretation of their religion to be the law of the land and force everyone to adhere to their sect's moral and religious views, under penalty of law, are very vocal in CA, NC, and TN.

Better?

Than blanket statements
 
Not that it matters to you, but the Bible tells us that the only "nature" that God instilled in us is a sin nature.
There are MANY in this world, civalized and not, that would argue with you about murder, theft and perjury being morally wrong.

I adopted a young man that does not care that any of those things, along with lying and cheating and touching females without permission is wrong.

I have no issue with what a state passes or does not pass. My point is that the Christians take too much "blame" for the things that the non-christians don't want to pass.

You start off by saying what the Bible teaches, then end by saying Christians take too much "blame"....smh.

Who you have adopted means nothing to the larger issue at discussion. It is a single data point. Just for reference, how old is your adopted child?

Do you really think homosexuality would be villified the way it is had God decided to be silent on the subject. What is it, 90% of the US population believe in a deity of some sort, with around 80% being Christian? Whether they go to church or not, they are at least familiar with biblical teachings. Even by conservative estimates, that says 50% of the US population believes homosexuality to be a sin of some sort. That tells me all I need to know.
 
Oh, and to be honest, I am a Christian as well. I just subscribe more to the notion that I am flawed and have enough difficulty in taking care of myself to worry too much about others. I also feel that the best way to win others to Christ is to show the love and compassion that Jesus showed to the most vile of sinners. Passing laws, in a sense demonizing, a group is no way to get them to come around to your way of seeing things. I know it may not be an attack on gays, per se in your eyes. But, I assure you, it's seen as an attack by them. Not too many would be willing to listen to the message of Jesus which is peace, love for one another, and forgiveness if they feel like they are witnessing hate, perceived or real. Last night in church the lesson was about not even having the perception of evil- not just don't do evil- because it may be a stumbling block for others. Trying to disenfranchise a group in favor of 'defending' something else is seen as hate in the eyes of many. The perception of hate, which is evil, is a stumbling block for these individuals. There's no way these folks would be open to listening to the position of those that want gay marriage outlawed. As a result, they will see what should be a message of love as a message of hate and condemnation.

I agree with much of this. I just see my opinion as the lesser of 2 evils. Risk offending a small percentage of the population in order to preserve something I feel is important or lean towards being PC and watch as something important loses its true meaning. There is no easy choice. Marriage is the anchor of a real family. The basic building block of family and society. Fatherless homes are certainly a far more serious problem IMO than gay marriage. The difference is there is nothing I can do about that. I honestly regret even bringing this issue to VN...I am relatively new here and it has certainly caused me a lot of problems. My pastor implored our congregation to get out and vote and to do what we could to support the amendment. I agree with this legislation and thought I would bring the issue to the only place I communicate with others outside of home and work. I started a thread announcing the upcoming vote hoping that others would take notice. I understand that my views are not popular here. They're not supposed to be. Salt and light. I've learned a lot through the resulting discussions, and i feel like I have done what I was asked to do. My only real regret is that I am indeed a sinner and my attitude has not always been great when I've presented my views. I have failed both the Lord and myself in that regard. He is my Father though, and He knows my intentions were honorable. In day to day life I am about as laid back as people come. I never try to push my views on people, or judge them. That's not my place. I apologize to those I have offended by stating what I believe to be the truth. My faith and desire to please God are as ever unwavering.
 
I guess it comes down to the definition of a Christian with you.

With regards to my adopted son, I stated it as just an example of the way a lot of people think and I would dare say that there are more people that do not think the stealing or perjury is bad than there are gays in America. Just my opinion.

You respond me as if I am for this bill, I am not. I have family and church members that are gay and I will see them in Heaven for eternity. Homosexuality is a sin and nothing else. It is not a salvation issue. (My reference to what the Bible teaches was a side note that has nothing to do with the bill in question, sorry for the confusion.)
 
I guess it comes down to the definition of a Christian with you.

With regards to my adopted son, I stated it as just an example of the way a lot of people think and I would dare say that there are more people that do not think the stealing or perjury is bad than there are gays in America. Just my opinion.

You respond me as if I am for this bill, I am not. I have family and church members that are gay and I will see them in Heaven for eternity. Homosexuality is a sin and nothing else. It is not a salvation issue. (My reference to what the Bible teaches was a side note that has nothing to do with the bill in question, sorry for the confusion.)

I don't mean to respond as if I am assuming you are against this bill.

I guess my main point is I seriously doubt there would be such resistance against homosexualily if the Bible was silent on the subject.
 
I don't mean to respond as if I am assuming you are against this bill.

I guess my main point is I seriously doubt there would be such resistance against homosexualily if the Bible was silent on the subject.

I don't think the Bible is the reason for the resistance. I think it is human nature for a heterosexual to think homosexuality is wrong.
Most straight guys think it's cool to see two women together but two men together not so much.
 
I don't think the Bible is the reason for the resistance. I think it is human nature for a heterosexual to think homosexuality is wrong.
Most straight guys think it's cool to see two women together but two men together not so much.

What do you base this claim upon?

Homosexuality was tolerated and even widely engaged in throughout both Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome; homosexuality was not condemned by the Catholic Church until the Fifth Century when Augustine (a man who had previously engaged in a multitude of bisexual orgies) wrote against the practice; many throughout Medieval Europe still engaged in homosexuality and many English Kings were homosexual (or, at least bisexual, to include King James I...yes, of the King James Version of the Bible); and, as religion has subsided and released its stranglehold on society, homosexuality has once again experienced an open resurgence.

The only institutions that have historically banned homosexuality, are the same institutions that have historically banned sex in all forms outside of marriage and for the purposes of procreation...they have been religions (most notably, Abrahamic Religions).
 
What do you base this claim upon?

Homosexuality was tolerated and even widely engaged in throughout both Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome; homosexuality was not condemned by the Catholic Church until the Fifth Century when Augustine (a man who had previously engaged in a multitude of bisexual orgies) wrote against the practice; many throughout Medieval Europe still engaged in homosexuality and many English Kings were homosexual (or, at least bisexual, to include King James I...yes, of the King James Version of the Bible); and, as religion has subsided and released its stranglehold on society, homosexuality has once again experienced an open resurgence.

The only institutions that have historically banned homosexuality, are the same institutions that have historically banned sex in all forms outside of marriage and for the purposes of procreation...they have been religions (most notably, Abrahamic Religion.

Catholic Trut is back !!!

The CC , King James or Augustine has zero to do with human nature.
Human nature is not an institution.
 
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I agree with much of this. I just see my opinion as the lesser of 2 evils. Risk offending a small percentage of the population in order to preserve something I feel is important or lean towards being PC and watch as something important loses its true meaning. There is no easy choice. Marriage is the anchor of a real family. The basic building block of family and society. Fatherless homes are certainly a far more serious problem IMO than gay marriage. The difference is there is nothing I can do about that. I honestly regret even bringing this issue to VN...I am relatively new here and it has certainly caused me a lot of problems. My pastor implored our congregation to get out and vote and to do what we could to support the amendment. I agree with this legislation and thought I would bring the issue to the only place I communicate with others outside of home and work. I started a thread announcing the upcoming vote hoping that others would take notice. I understand that my views are not popular here. They're not supposed to be. Salt and light. I've learned a lot through the resulting discussions, and i feel like I have done what I was asked to do. My only real regret is that I am indeed a sinner and my attitude has not always been great when I've presented my views. I have failed both the Lord and myself in that regard. He is my Father though, and He knows my intentions were honorable. In day to day life I am about as laid back as people come. I never try to push my views on people, or judge them. That's not my place. I apologize to those I have offended by stating what I believe to be the truth. My faith and desire to please God are as ever unwavering.

We all fail, but we keep trying.

Trust me, I see the ramifications of the dissolution of the home on a daily basis. I just feel that before we start harping on the sanctity of marriage to others, we need to do a better job of treating it sacred ourselves. We can't defend that stance when we treat it like it's a disposable item that we can just discard when anything gets tough or we get tired of it. We can't pound our chests about the sanctity of marriage when we show just how sacred it is by having a divorce rate of greater than 50%.
 
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We all fail, but we keep trying.

Trust me, I see the ramifications of the dissolution of the home on a daily basis. I just feel that before we start harping on the sanctity of marriage to others, we need to do a better job of treating it sacred ourselves. We can't defend that stance when we treat it like it's a disposable item that we can just discard when anything gets tough or we get tired of it. We can't pound our chests about the sanctity of marriage when we show just how sacred it is by having a divorce rate of greater than 50%.

I agree. I am a 35 year old and I have 2 children by the same woman...my wife. Old school. Unfortunately that's becoming increasingly rare. Marriage is hard work. I think most people just aren't up to the task. That's a big part of the reason I said we have a lot in common I could tell you take pride in your family. I also face physical challenges. Had surgery on my back last winter and refuse to whine about it or let it hold me back. I respect that as well.
 
I agree. I am a 35 year old and I have 2 children by the same woman...my wife. Old school. Unfortunately that's becoming increasingly rare. Marriage is hard work. I think most people just aren't up to the task. That's a big part of the reason I said we have a lot in common I could tell you take pride in your family. I also face physical challenges. Had surgery on my back last winter and refuse to whine about it or let it hold me back. I respect that as well.


Had 2 back surgeries already. Same level L5-S1. Need a fusion now, but not too keen on that. I also have MS (8 years now). I'm lucky to be as active as I am which is very considering. No sense in complaining.
 
Had 2 back surgeries already. Same level L5-S1. Need a fusion now, but not too keen on that. I also have MS (8 years now). I'm lucky to be as active as I am which is very considering. No sense in complaining.

Ill pray for you bro. Keep on keepin on. Nice to meet you.
 
Had 2 back surgeries already. Same level L5-S1. Need a fusion now, but not too keen on that. I also have MS (8 years now). I'm lucky to be as active as I am which is very considering. No sense in complaining.

Jay, I have been reading your post for a couple of years(guessing). You have a lot of drive and ambition. I don't know what you are going through with the MS and no one that hasn't had it would. I have a sister that has had it for 8-10 years. I do know some of the things she has gone through.
You deserve a tremendous amount of respect. Hang in there and keep pushing. I will keep you in my prayers.
 
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Jay, I have been reading your post for a couple of years(guessing). You have a lot of drive and ambition. I don't know what you are going through with the MS and no one that hasn't had it would. I have a sister that has had it for 8-10 years. I do know some of the things she has gone through.
You deserve a tremendous amount of respect. Hang in there and keep pushing. I will keep you in my prayers.

Jay seems to be stubborn and hard headed.

Probably why he's able to do what he does with the attitude he has.
 
Jay seems to be stubborn and hard headed.

Probably why he's able to do what he does with the attitude he has.

Thanks to all of you guys. Beech has it right- I'm stubborn, bad stubborn. I know you guys weren't doing this, but I don't want sympathy. Doesn't help anything, imo. I try to emulate my dad's attitude. He fought the same condition for 17 years. If I did anything less, I'd be dishonoring his example. I won't dishonor the man that was my best friend.

I'm fortunate guys. I get up every day, go stamp out a little ignorance in teenagers, go coach a little ball, then come home and play with my girls. I have good and bad times. The bad just makes me appreciate the good. Other than having to stay out of extreme heat (90 & I start feeling it), having to take more breaks when working, and not being able to run faster than a jog (my right leg won't keep up due to the neurological delays) I still do what I want. The only thing that I love that I was forced to give up after 15 years is coaching high school football. No biggie- I started coaching softball instead (February-May isn't as hot as August 3-a-days). I'm blessed to be 8 years into this and doing great. I don't have any quit in me in anything I do. I am competitive to a fault. Ask my girls- I want to beat them even if it's just Go Fish. Once again, my dad would be disappointed in me if I quit. Even though I don't have him with me anymore, it's not a good idea to let dad down.

Thanks again.
 
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My nephew is gay. He's a good kid, just graduated from UT in December, looking like he's about to land his first real job in his profession. I don't like constantly worrying about him because some in this country feel the need to hate and fear what is different. I want him to be happy in his life. If that includes marriage, I want him to have that. I don't feel it's right for the vocal majority to enslave people who don't share their ideals.

People can say "the Bible says..." all they want, but I know the Bible says a lot that is looked over or just out and out ignored. At the end of the day, none of us are God. If being gay is a sin, then they will be judged by the Lord on Judgement Day. It is not our place to act as judge now.

All the gay community wants is equality. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with wanting to be treated like any other couple in America? The idea may sound radical to some, but when this nation was founded, the ideas our forefathers set forth were considered radical. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, what happenned to these self-evident truths? These are our inalienable right as endowed upon us by our Creator. For so many who espouse "God" in government, I always thought it funny that the founders chose the word "Creator", not "God". Most Christians have forgotten that Christianity is not the law of the land. The law of the land allows them to practice Christianity. They are given that freedom. Yet they now deny freedom to those who wish to choose differently. We accept Muslims, Hindi, Buddhists, and any other form of religion, but we can't accept homosexuality? What is this great fear?

Once upon a time, I feared gay people. Then I met some. I was ignorant. The image I had in my mind was not accurate. These were not sick people spreading a disease. They were just people trying to live their lives. They were good people, mocked by others for being different. Shunned for being brave enough to say this is who I am. They were bullied. And once again, America is bullying them by denying them their rights of equality. You would think in this time now, when anti-bullying campaigns have been ramped up the way they have, that people would see this. But they don't. Bullying isn't just about violence, it's about making people seem less than what they are. By turning gays into second class citizens, we have denigrated them and made them seem to be lesser beings. They are not. They are people with hopes and dreams and families that love them. And all they want, all their families want, is for the country to acknowledge that they are no different from the rest of us.

Pass or not, I'm not even sure this NC law has any true meaning. What we need is a change at the national level. Maybe even an amendment to the Constitution. "All men are created equal." The things we forget. The things we take for granted. I'm not sure how the forefathers felt about homosexuality, but I do know the treatment gays are subject to now spits in the face of the ideals they set forth. It saddens me.

To those who are against gay marriage, I ask of you one thing. Take a step back and imagine government legislating your life in such a way. Imagine if their was a law prohibiting you from marrying your wife. How would you feel? You don't have to face that because this is a predominantly Christian country, but try imagining the government telling you you can't marry the person you love. Voting for people to have rights does not have to mean you condone their way of life. You are entitled to your opinions, but they are entitled to their rights. Let them have them. One of the first things I remember learning is the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So how would you want to be treated?
 
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