Standard of Living already down.

#51
#51
IPorange said:
All I know is I was raised to believe all people were equal. I'm not sure how one can believe that and also believe Americans are automatically worth more or somehow better people than others.
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I agree that all people start out as equals. However, all people do not have equal accomplishments.
 
#52
#52
KentheOrange said:
BS. Explain how two countries, on the same island have such radically different standards of living.
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DR's edges: A brutal dictator with an eye for preserving natural resources in the early part of last century for one, starting out with an educated upper and middle class population from the beginning for another.

It's worth noting that Haiti and the DR have a violent history, with the DR dictating terms though the sword once upon a time.


What's your stance? Dominicans are just better people than Haitians? I have spent time in both nations and know that to not be the case.
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#54
#54
VOLatile said:
How different is the standard of living between Haiti and Dominican Republic? Was there a measurable difference pre-earthquake?
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Definitely. The DR is poor in places, but Haiti is freaking post-apocalyptic. There are no natural resources left to speak of. No class fluidity. Rampant disease, malnutrition, and poverty. That's all before the earthquake. The irony of the news reports about outlying infrastructure damage from the quake was much of it was like that BEFORE.
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#55
#55
IPorange said:
DR's edges: A brutal dictator with an eye for preserving natural resources in the early part of last century for one, starting out with an educated upper and middle class population from the beginning for another.

It's worth noting that Haiti and the DR have a violent history, with the DR dictating terms though the sword once upon a time.


What's your stance? Dominicans are just better people than Haitians? I have spent time in both nations and know that to not be the case.
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Didn't say that. You stated that Haiti didn't have the resources and history that we have. My point is that DR has done more with with approximately the same resources. It should go without saying that they could have made a different history.
 
#56
#56
IPorange said:
Definitely. The DR is poor in places, but Haiti is freaking post-apocalyptic. There are no natural resources left to speak of. No class fluidity. Rampant disease, malnutrition, and poverty. That's all before the earthquake. The irony of the news reports about outlying infrastructure damage from the quake was much of it was like that BEFORE.
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You mean like the tree line between Haiti and the DR?
 
#57
#57
KentheOrange said:
Didn't say that. You stated that Haiti didn't have the resources and history that we have. My point is that DR has done more with with approximately the same resources. It should go without saying that they could have made a different history.
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We didn't create our situation here (you and me) any more than they did there. We here lucked into being born in a nation that had made good decisions and was embarrassed with riches fairly early on.

People keep slipping into this mode where they act like we choose where we are born and make every decision in our history ourselves. It doesn't work that way. You can't blame modern Haiti for what 1924 Haiti decided to do to it's natural environment. It makes no sense.
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#59
#59
IPorange said:
We didn't create our situation here (you and me) any more than they did there. We here lucked into being born in a nation that had made good decisions and was embarrassed with riches fairly early on.

People keep slipping into this mode where they act like we choose where we are born and make every decision in our history ourselves. It doesn't work that way. You can't blame modern Haiti for what 1924 Haiti decided to do to it's natural environment. It makes no sense.
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I agree. However, I don't think it makes any more sense to say that we owe them because our ancestors made better decisions than theirs. We have the problem of helping them out of a situation they had no control over (the earthquake) that is intertwined with a situation they could have had control over (their politics).
 
#60
#60
IPorange said:
Definitely. The DR is poor in places, but Haiti is freaking post-apocalyptic. There are no natural resources left to speak of. No class fluidity. Rampant disease, malnutrition, and poverty. That's all before the earthquake. The irony of the news reports about outlying infrastructure damage from the quake was much of it was like that BEFORE.
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Thanks. I don't know much about either country. Much appreciated.
 
#61
#61
IPorange said:
Yes. You should see it in person. But they are just doing whatever they can to survive. There isn't much opportunity if any there.
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and throwing money at it isn't going to solve the problem, either. How much money has the US sent to Haiti since the Clinton administration? Billions. What has Haiti got to show for it? Not much more than a corrupt government that impounds vehicles meant for relief charities because the charities can't pay the 40% import duty.

It sucks to be a Haitian right now, but, in many ways, they brought this on themselves by supporting corrupt banana-republic-style dictators like the Duvaliers.
 
#62
#62
I think the generation lately born will be living through a crisis. There is no intent on changing course, and a crash landing is inevitable. Their standard of living will be down, although the data in the OP suggests, at best, SoL has been stagnant for 40 years. It seems inevitable we will bequeath them an impoverished, polarized, and very dangerous world.

I certainly don't mind where the discussion has led. Jared Diamond firmly believes evolution has already been at work in New Guinea - New Guineans as a whole are more intelligent than the West. I don't think it is evolution - I think social - it is a life which has to engage the real world in all four dimensions every waking hour. But I think his observations are valid - I believe the New Guineans have sharper wits, more fluid minds - but not better genes. Why do they not have "cargo?" Accident of geography.

NOW, you can take Diamond's argument too far. Haiti is a perfect example. To suggest the US has no culpability in the state of Haiti today is to deny history, is to deny the real world. No episode encapsulates the story of neoliberalism - the ideology even expressed here on this site - that Capital is more important than people (I believe droski and volinbham say they are equals) - than the tragedy of the Creole Pig.

Moreover, the Duvaliers are a product of US action in a ridiculous Cold War cycle. Suffice to say, just like in Afghanistan with Taraki, had we let Aristide lead as his democratic mandate, Haiti would be in FAR better shape today than it is - earthquake and all. Haitians NEVER supported the Duvaliers (strike that, the few that had Capital did).
 
#66
#66
MG1968 said:
so, maybe we should just go all the way and annex Haiti and turn it into an American Territory like Guam.
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Too paternalistic. This is an error I believe in all aid thinking, IMHO. Again, they've been a country as long as we have.
 
#67
#67
IPorange said:
Nationalistic BS. We have the benefit of resources and history that they just flat-out don't have. You are no better than anyone else.
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Better may not be the right term but I don't buy into pure environmental determinism.

We are a product of the type of people that settled here and their particular motivations.

Maybe that's what you mean by history.

Better is subjective but outcomes do depend on differences in people/culture in the collective sense.
 
#68
#68
IPorange said:
Nationalistic BS. We have the benefit of resources and history that they just flat-out don't have. You are no better than anyone else.
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before the slave revolution haiti was the richest colony in the new world by a pretty wide margin. i think there might be more to america's success than simply resource advantage.
 
#69
#69
IPorange said:
All I know is I was raised to believe all people were equal. I'm not sure how one can believe that and also believe Americans are automatically worth more or somehow better people than others.
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it's not the people, it's the system.
 
#70
#70
utgibbs said:
There is no way to shirk responsibility on Haiti, I'm afraid. No way at all.
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yes. we created a society of socialism and dependance on the state and allowed a few people to dominate all aid. makes sense to me.
 
#71
#71
droski said:
yes. we created a society of socialism and dependance on the state and allowed a few people to dominate all aid. makes sense to me.
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You just don't get it. Somehow - someway - it's our fault that Haiti is the armpit of the western world. It's all part of the liberal guilt trip.
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#72
#72
Vol_4_Life said:
You just don't get it. Somehow - someway - it's our fault that Haiti is the armpit of the western world. It's all part of the liberal guilt trip.
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After the killing of JC, Climatic change, and slavery, my guilt tank is on empty:)
 
#73
#73
volinbham said:
Better may not be the right term but I don't buy into pure environmental determinism.

We are a product of the type of people that settled here and their particular motivations.

Maybe that's what you mean by history.

Better is subjective but outcomes do depend on differences in people/culture in the collective sense.
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Not really. At least 90% of the native populations here were destroyed by small pox. A disease born in Europe with close proximity to most common domesticates (where the disease came from). The Americas had one domesticate - the llama family.

Europe would still be in the Old World had the Native Americans had any defense against smallpox. The Americas had at least two cities greater than any European city at the arrival of the "Conquistadors."

Unfortunately, this is exactly why if we find another "Class M" planet, we have no chance of colonizing it. Wells and "War of the Worlds" was spot-on.
 
#74
#74
droski said:
yes. we created a society of socialism and dependance on the state and allowed a few people to dominate all aid. makes sense to me.
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If you're being ironic :thumbsup:

Because almost the exact opposite is what happened in the real world.
 
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