Sweeping Sexual Assault Suit Filed Against UT

[Kristy*]

I 100% don't agree with all the BS that issues like this cause universities with title 9 but that doesn't mean they aren't real

In the cases where "safe" learning environments are compromised then the school can change schedules or work with students on a independent study basis but it's darn sure their responsibly to change the "unsafe" setting way before guilt or innocence is determined

I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or still attempting to argue. . . Of course the school should change schedules to ensure safe learning environments, if requested/needed. But schedule changes should be of the accusers, not the accused. Because before innocence or guilt is determined, it would be unfair to punish the accused (punishment being anything, including a schedule change).

 

[volfan102455]

You lost me at "failed by being unable to tell the future", so I stopped reading. It seemed to start strong. But I doubt I'll go back and read the rest.

My take on what was meant - Me, you, nor a university, nor society in general can prevent something that may happen in the future because you don't know it is going to happen. We can only educate our children, the university can only educate their students about the activities that MAY lead to a situation that gets out of control. One choice, one second - can change a life forever.

For the most part, the students are 18+ and adults. They can vote. They can drive. They can live on their own and make their own choices. And sometimes those choices are not the right ones. No one is responsible for those bad choices but the person that makes it.

 

[BruinVol]

I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or still attempting to argue. . . Of course the school should change schedules to ensure safe learning environments, if requested/needed. But schedule changes should be of the accusers, not the accused. Because before innocence or guilt is determined, it would be unfair to punish the accused (punishment being anything, including a schedule change).

The only thing I am arguing with you on is guilt or innocence doesn't have to be determined before schedules are changed. I know that's procedure

Now I don't know who's schedule has to change first but i tend to agree with you. At least logic says that is how it should be but with title 9 all bets are off

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

The only thing I am arguing with you on is guilt or innocence doesn't have to be determined before schedules are changed. I know that's procedure

Now I don't know who's schedule has to change first but i tend to agree with you. At least logic says that is how it should be but with title 9 all bets are off

Where Gibbs can get difficult with that though is upper level classes where there aren't any viable options for an alternate class.

It would be easy to switch geology 101 classes of course, but some of the classes students take in their 3rd-4th year of their studies just have one section per semester.

So then the question becomes whether it's just to throw the accused out of a class before the school investigation and hearing is completed.

 

[BruinVol]

Where Gibbs can get difficult with that though is upper level classes where there aren't any viable options for an alternate class.

It would be easy to switch geology 101 classes of course, but some of the classes students take in their 3rd-4th year of their studies just have one section per semester.

So then the question becomes whether it's just to throw the accused out of a class before the school investigation and hearing is completed.

Independent study where the professor works with the Student is always an option

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Independent study where the professor works with the Student is always an option

Maybe for the students, but professors usually have more going on than just a class (especially if they're teaching 300-400 level classes). Not to mention the fact that, depending on the class, group lab work/discussion/etc could be a pretty big part of the education that student is paying for.

 

[BruinVol]

Maybe for the students, but professors usually have more going on than just a class (especially if they're teaching 300-400 level classes). Not to mention the fact that, depending on the class, group lab work/discussion/etc could be a pretty big part of the education that student is paying for.

Yes professors hate dealing with this bs. Same with AD members but it happens


Has to happen though

 

[AM64]

My take on what was meant - Me, you, nor a university, nor society in general can prevent something that may happen in the future because you don't know it is going to happen. We can only educate our children, the university can only educate their students about the activities that MAY lead to a situation that gets out of control. One choice, one second - can change a life forever.

For the most part, the students are 18+ and adults. They can vote. They can drive. They can live on their own and make their own choices. And sometimes those choices are not the right ones. No one is responsible for those bad choices but the person that makes it.

Probably a better description is "omnipotent". I can't think of many ways that the university can "reasonably know" that a girl will go to a party with an athlete, drink too much, go to bed with him, and then have buyer's remorse. The school may know that it is common practice and warn against it, but there just isn't much way that the school would know that on 4/4/2016 Jane Doe #9 would be going through that process with John Smith. Since omnipotence isn't relegated to humans, the school isn't going to be able to prevent it. We all know that trains hit cars on railroad crossings, but it still happens regularly. It's preventable, yet not always prevented, but Title IX would have you believe that some local police department and/or the RR should have reasonably known an accident would happen and prevented another case of poor personal judgement.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Yes professors hate dealing with this bs. Same with AD members but it happens


Has to happen though

It's easier said than done though. That's my point.

 

[BruinVol]

It's easier said than done though. That's my point.

Yes but it doesn't matter

When the provost or department chair or other superior says this kid gets an independent study that's what happens

It isn't up to the professor in such cases

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Yes but it doesn't matter

When the provost or department chair or other superior says this kid gets an independent study that's what happens

It isn't up to the professor in such cases

That's ignoring the fact that some classes can't be substituted with an independent study.

 

[Volnukem]

Speculation here, but I would assume it's typical to alter the accuser's schedule because they are likely to be uncomfortable in a class room that likely contains some of the accused friends. Additionally, the accused is also likely to be in the class room with the accuser's friends as well, but the default is to ensure a "safe, learning environment for the accuser, not the accused. Therefore, the university changes the accuser's schedule without penalties like 'W' or 'I' on their transcript.

 

[BruinVol]

That's ignoring the fact that some classes can't be substituted with an independent study.

Not sure I believe there are any classes that can't be finished if the professor is forced or willing to work with the student in an independent study manner.

Not saying there would be the same in terms of content but the same as in credit toward graduation

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Speculation here, but I would assume it's typical to alter the accuser's schedule because they are likely to be uncomfortable in a class room that likely contains some of the accused friends. Additionally, the accused is also likely to be in the class room with the accuser's friends as well, but the default is to ensure a "safe, learning environment for the accuser, not the accused. Therefore, the university changes the accuser's schedule without penalties like 'W' or 'I' on their transcript.

No it doesn't matter just make it happen

Edit: blue font

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Not sure I believe there are any classes that can't be finished if the professor is forced or willing to work with the student in an independent study manner.

Not saying there would be the same in terms of content but the same as in credit toward graduation

It depends on the major. I know it's been a long time since you were in school, but a lot of the liberal arts nowadays are really emphasizing classes done in group settings in somewhat of a Socratic style. If a kid is taking a philosophy class where a big chunk of the grade is based on class discourse/discussion with other students, it's not fair to him or the other students to move him to an independent study with the professor.

Sure, it's technically possible that a professor could be forced to do something like that I guess. But it's not as easy as your flippant "it doesn't matter, make it happen" comments would suggest in some cases.

 

[ButchPlz]

It depends on the major. I know it's been a long time since you were in school, but a lot of the liberal arts nowadays are really emphasizing classes done in group settings in somewhat of a Socratic style. If a kid is taking a philosophy class where a big chunk of the grade is based on class discourse/discussion with other students, it's not fair to him or the other students to move him to an independent study with the professor.

Sure, it's technically possible that a professor could be forced to do something like that I guess. But it's not as easy as your flippant "it doesn't matter, make it happen" comments would suggest in some cases.

Even my business school classes at UT included heavy 'participation' scores. That's become normal.

 

[BruinVol]

It depends on the major. I know it's been a long time since you were in school, but a lot of the liberal arts nowadays are really emphasizing classes done in group settings in somewhat of a Socratic style. If a kid is taking a philosophy class where a big chunk of the grade is based on class discourse/discussion with other students, it's not fair to him or the other students to move him to an independent study with the professor.

Sure, it's technically possible that a professor could be forced to do something like that I guess. But it's not as easy as your flippant "it doesn't matter, make it happen" comments would suggest in some cases.

Sure classes are like that. But again in cases like this professors are required to work with the individual students.

Same way if they had a major medical issue or something along those lines.

This is the age where when the "law" gets involved universities are required to bend over backwards to make things work. Not that I like it but it's true

 

[UT-Rex]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Shiveman View Post
It depends on the major. I know it's been a long time since you were in school, but a lot of the liberal arts nowadays are really emphasizing classes done in group settings in somewhat of a Socratic style. If a kid is taking a philosophy class where a big chunk of the grade is based on class discourse/discussion with other students, it's not fair to him or the other students to move him to an independent study with the professor.

Sure, it's technically possible that a professor could be forced to do something like that I guess. But it's not as easy as your flippant "it doesn't matter, make it happen" comments would suggest in some cases.

Sure classes are like that. But again in cases like this professors are required to work with the individual students.

Same way if they had a major medical issue or something along those lines.

This is the age where when the "law" gets involved universities are required to bend over backwards to make things work. Not that I like it but it's true

So Bruin, professors are required to work with individual students, just as Head Coaches are required to work with individual student-athletes. What the newspaper in nashville showed us last week, was the multiple phone calls made by Coach Jones, diligently showing support for the student-athletes under his care, beginning at about 8:30 the morning following alleged incidents at the off-campus apartment -- it's likely he didn't know the plaintiffs, but Head Coach spoke with a uncle of one player and even called the father of another student-athlete, who is a police captain. Didn't Coach Jones say he called the father to show support of the son, and isn't Coach Jones also the son of police captain/chief of police? Aren't we showing here that Coach Jones has built a culture of Care and Consideration for those under his watch?

 

[BruinVol]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Shiveman View Post
It depends on the major. I know it's been a long time since you were in school, but a lot of the liberal arts nowadays are really emphasizing classes done in group settings in somewhat of a Socratic style. If a kid is taking a philosophy class where a big chunk of the grade is based on class discourse/discussion with other students, it's not fair to him or the other students to move him to an independent study with the professor.

Sure, it's technically possible that a professor could be forced to do something like that I guess. But it's not as easy as your flippant "it doesn't matter, make it happen" comments would suggest in some cases.



So Bruin, professors are required to work with individual students, just as Head Coaches are required to work with individual student-athletes. What the newspaper in nashville showed us last week, was the multiple phone calls made by Coach Jones, diligently showing support for the student-athletes under his care, beginning at about 8:30 the morning following alleged incidents at the off-campus apartment -- it's likely he didn't know the plaintiffs, but Head Coach spoke with a uncle of one player and even called the father of another student-athlete, who is a police captain. Didn't Coach Jones say he called the father to show support of the son, and isn't Coach Jones also the son of police captain/chief of police? Aren't we showing here that Coach Jones has built a culture of Care and Consideration for those under his watch?

Sure that's the version I hope is true and Believe it to be

 

[edyeary]

Female privilege

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkCQvuWw2HI

 

[I40flyer]

Yes but it doesn't matter

When the provost or department chair or other superior says this kid gets an independent study that's what happens

It isn't up to the professor in such cases

Are you saying a Full Professor (with tenure) must teach/set-up/be available for etc. an independent study program because the provost has order him/her to? What if 5 students, each having their own un-related problem, were students of the same professor, but each could only be available at different times-would that Full Professor have to work nights and weekends, no matter what? I'm pretty sure you're way off here. I do not believe the Provost has the authority to order a Full Professor how, where, and when they will teach their class.

 

[BruinVol]

Are you saying a Full Professor (with tenure) must teach/set-up/be available for etc. an independent study program because the provost has order him/her to? What if 5 students, each having their own un-related problem, were students of the same professor, but each could only be available at different times-would that Full Professor have to work nights and weekends, no matter what? I'm pretty sure you're way off here. I do not believe the Provost has the authority to order a Full Professor how, where, and when they will teach their class.

I am not sure from whom the "order" would come from but yes I am saying if in title IX cases a victim misses class time due to the traumatic circumstance the professor 100% has an obligation to work with that student independently.

You guys saying professors aren't obligated to adjusting their class in special circumstances aren't thinking straight. You think a kid like inky Johnson who had a lengthy hospital stay wasn't given some independent studies to complete those classes he was in that fall semester of his traumatic injury? Sure he was and so are all students that have real traumatic events happen to them in the middle of semesters

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

I am not sure from whom the "order" would come from but yes I am saying if in title IX cases a victim misses class time due to the traumatic circumstance the professor 100% has an obligation to work with that student independently.

You guys saying professors aren't obligated to adjusting their class in special circumstances aren't thinking straight. You think a kid like inky Johnson who had a lengthy hospital stay wasn't given some independent studies to complete those classes he was in that fall semester of his traumatic injury? Sure he was and so are all students that have real traumatic events happen to them in the middle of semesters

FTR, how long since you were a college student, Bruin? I'd bet things have changed a great deal.

Also, professors are required to make exceptions for students with physical (and increasingly, mental) health issues. But that's completely different. Professors everywhere are required to work with a student who is physically incapable of being present in a class.

That's a completely different issue and also not the point any of us were trying to make. Sorry I wasn't able to post it 20 more times to make that clear for you. I'll try to format this in a way you can understand:


The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.

The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.

The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.

The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.


The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.


The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.


The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.


The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.

The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.

 

[Smallvol#1]

FTR, how long since you were a college student, Bruin? I'd bet things have changed a great deal.

Also, professors are required to make exceptions for students with physical (and increasingly, mental) health issues. But that's completely different. Professors everywhere are required to work with a student who is physically incapable of being present in a class.

That's a completely different issue and also not the point any of us were trying to make. Sorry I wasn't able to post it 20 more times to make that clear for you. I'll try to format this in a way you can understand:


The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.

The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.

The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.

The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.


The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.


The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.


The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.


The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.

The point is that not every class is one that is conducive to one on one sessions with a professor. It's possible that a student could be in a class that can't be mimicked in such a situation.

I think you made your point.:thumbsup:

 

[BruinVol]

FTR, how long since you were a college student, Bruin? I'd bet things have changed a great deal.

Also, professors are required to make exceptions for students with physical (and increasingly, mental) health issues. But that's completely different. Professors everywhere are required to work with a student who is physically incapable of being present in a class.

.

Your first question. Let's just say I have been in a classroom very very recently.


Your second statement shows your ignorance on this subject. A "victim"
Of a sexual assault is 100% apart of the group you just described as being incapable of being able to attend a class especially where their peers are present that are aware of such an alleged incident

Very very ignorant of you not to realize that. Perhaps as ignorant as using a kids major life changing injury to further a classless argument on the internet.