Sweeping Sexual Assault Suit Filed Against UT

[82_VOL_83]

I don't really disagree with you. But I'm pretty sure the facts are as I said. Feel free to correct me (with actual facts, though--not just conjecture).

Sam U never played a down at Baylor. Tevin Elliott was suspended upon being charged (if not before). Those are the two that have been convicted of something.

Oakman is currently facing charges for an incident that occurred while he was preparing for the draft.

Nobody else was ever charged, unless I'm mistaken.

Admittedly, Butch may have been even quicker to suspend because (and I'm more familiar with the UT facts) Butch has suspended upon any accusation (not just charges, etc.) in every case I'm aware of.

Being "pretty sure of the facts" means you don't know you if are stating fact or fiction which invalidates your arguments. I am pretty sure I heard that he had played players accused of sexual misconduct. However, I don't know it as fact. Please show your sources before you require someone else to validate your doubts.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Quit trolling. Shielded players from punishment, just did a little Google search. Butch has suspended every player with accusations immediately until said player is cleared. Briles much like Jimbo Fisher allows his players to play until hauled off in cuffs.

Art Briles built Baylor brash, bold, leaves tarnished legacy | College Football



But the program had become insulated to a fault, according to the investigation by the Pepper Hamilton law firm. It said football coaches hindered investigations while dealing on their own with accusers and parents of accusers, and failed to provide information to university officials. Football coaches at Baylor doled out insufficient discipline and shielded players from the punishments that would have been handed out to other students, the report said.

Sounds like you are sure of your facts.

 

[nagle]

Being "pretty sure of the facts" means you don't know you if are stating fact or fiction which invalidates your arguments. I am pretty sure I heard that he had played players accused of sexual misconduct. However, I don't know it as fact. Please show your sources before you require someone else to validate your doubts.

See, that's the issue. Wants others too show facts before he does.

 

[drylo]

Being "pretty sure of the facts" means you don't know you if are stating fact or fiction which invalidates your arguments. I am pretty sure I heard that he had played players accused of sexual misconduct. However, I don't know it as fact. Please show your sources before you require someone else to validate your doubts.

I stated facts--unambiguously--as to the three most prominent players involved (Sam U, Elliott and Oakman). I didn't want to overstate because I was allowing for the possibility that maybe somebody along the line somewhere played with some charge (not rape) pending. Next time I'll just bluff. Noted.

 

[Volsfaninva917]

But can the DA really push the trial back 2 more years???

They can keep it locked up in court for years with appeals etc. It could be declared a mistrial and have to start all over again. I really hope these 2 young men are looking into some really expensive civil attorney's.

 

[ajvol01]

DA is a female FWIW, some of the assistant prosecutors are ones quoted in KNS.

It sounds more and more like either the KPD, DA, or both did a poor job of sequestering the evidence on social media - may not help their case but the law requires it, and the defense is going to beat it like a dead horse. In the meantime the KNS is chomping at the bit to get all the details for more click bait

Sequester evidence?

 

[BigorangeBoy]

Sequester evidence?

I could not think of the proper words, was trying to say that they needed to gain all control of devices that had these various social media posts and tweets and retain them for evidence.

The defense maintains that the social media content would exonerate their clients. I would assume they have some of those transcripts from AJ's phone, we will find out at some point.

 

[ajvol01]

I could not think of the proper words, was trying to say that they needed to gain all control of devices that had these various social media posts and tweets and retain them for evidence.

The defense maintains that the social media content would exonerate their clients. I would assume they have some of those transcripts from AJ's phone, we will find out at some point.

Just giving you a hard time BoB - we all knew what you meant

 

[gunner]

DA is a female FWIW, some of the assistant prosecutors are ones quoted in KNS.

It sounds more and more like either the KPD, DA, or both did a poor job of sequestering the evidence on social media - may not help their case but the law requires it, and the defense is going to beat it like a dead horse. In the meantime the KNS is chomping at the bit to get all the details for more click bait

Preserving electronic evidence isn't always a simple process. For instance, text messages can be removed by the phone company from their server before law enforcement can get them a preservation letter, court order, search warrant or other such legal process. Most phone companies purge text messages within a few days. In that time frame, police investigators may not haves even identified the need for such preservation.

 

[WallyBalls]

Preserving electronic evidence isn't always a simple process. For instance, text messages can be removed by the phone company from their server before law enforcement can get them a preservation letter, court order, search warrant or other such legal process. Most phone companies purge text messages within a few days. In that time frame, police investigators may not haves even identified the need for such preservation.

But we aren't talking about text messages.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

This keeps getting confused in the media, and to an extent here as well.

This isn't a sexual assault case. This is a case about administrative procedures...about whether the University of Tennessee properly adhered to the requirements of Title IX of the US Code as it applies to sexual discrimination, sexual harassment, and sexual assault in higher education.

In short, it's a lot more about policies and SOPs than it is about what happened in a dormitory room or a student's apartment.

There are (or are not, as the case may be) criminal cases for getting to the truth of the latter.

Easy to get distracted by the salacious details surrounding the (real or exaggerated or made-up) incidents that opened the door to the possibility of a Title IX violation, but that's not what the judge, prosecutors, or defendants will be looking at in this case. This is about phone calls and meetings and emails, not dates, drinking and gettin' nekkid.

It's a pity the vast majority of the media can't keep up.

But...tabloid headlines sell.

 

[UT-Rex]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigorangeBoy View Post
DA is a female FWIW, some of the assistant prosecutors are ones quoted in KNS.

It sounds more and more like either the KPD, DA, or both did a poor job of sequestering the evidence on social media - may not help their case but the law requires it, and the defense is going to beat it like a dead horse. In the meantime the KNS is chomping at the bit to get all the details for more click bait

Preserving electronic evidence isn't always a simple process. For instance, text messages can be removed by the phone company from their server before law enforcement can get them a preservation letter, court order, search warrant or other such legal process. Most phone companies purge text messages within a few days. In that time frame, police investigators may not haves even identified the need for such preservation.

Do you recall, that the IX plaintiffs' attorney used 6 +/- social media / sports bulletin posts (from some source such as this site), made by "Knoxville" area posters, to help persuade the judge to hold court in Nashville, and not Knoxville?

What kind of legal system is this, where the accusers' phone records cannot be deemed vital, but anomymous poster posts can determine where a fair trial can be held vs where it can't ?

It's as if potential jurors in the Nashville area do not have access to Al Gore's world wide inter-web, or access to the Nashville-area newspaper which made as many biased claims on behalf of key witness(s) than any Knoxville-area anonymous web poster did on behalf of any other person involved.

In other words, while the Judge says he/she can't determine how best to use social media as evidence, he/she used anonymous posters' posts as "evidence" where a fair trial can/can't be had. Very awkward, imo.

 

[NashLawVol]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigorangeBoy View Post
DA is a female FWIW, some of the assistant prosecutors are ones quoted in KNS.

It sounds more and more like either the KPD, DA, or both did a poor job of sequestering the evidence on social media - may not help their case but the law requires it, and the defense is going to beat it like a dead horse. In the meantime the KNS is chomping at the bit to get all the details for more click bait



Do you recall, that the IX plaintiffs' attorney used 6 +/- social media / sports bulletin posts (from some source such as this site), made by "Knoxville" area posters, to help persuade the judge to hold court in Nashville, and not Knoxville?

What kind of legal system is this, where the accusers' phone records cannot be deemed vital, but anomymous poster posts can determine where a fair trial can be held vs where it can't ?

It's as if potential jurors in the Nashville area do not have access to Al Gore's world wide inter-web, or access to the Nashville-area newspaper which made as many biased claims on behalf of key witness(s) than any Knoxville-area anonymous web poster did on behalf of any other person involved.

In other words, while the Judge says he/she can't determine how best to use social media as evidence, he/she used anonymous posters' posts as "evidence" where a fair trial can/can't be had. Very awkward, imo.

Two different cases, in two different courts, in two different jurisdictions, by two different judges, one is a civil case, one is a criminal case.

 

[UT-Rex]

Two different cases, in two different courts, in two different jurisdictions, by two different judges, one is a civil case, one is a criminal case.

True, yet,

I was referring to the two (2) missing cell phones (where those 2 phones were sold/went missing // were not preserved as the parties/and the State agreed to) / and to the social media postings of the accuser/witness associated with those 2 missing/non-preserved phones (IE, in responding to below: it seems real easy to preserve this type of evidence, if you simply don't sell it) --

and,

I was responding to the following post, not the one you attached:

Quote: Originally Posted by gunner "Preserving electronic evidence isn't always a simple process.""

 

[AM64]

An interesting article (College football is breaking my heart) regarding abuse and college athletes - yes, UT gets mentioned again in passing

College football is breaking my heart

Again the blame is heaped on the schools and the male participants - pretty much rightly so, but it fails, as most others also do, to point out the other contributing factors. The emphasis on winning above all else - scholarship, sportsmanship, common sense, and even the most basic - the core business of universities (and it isn't sports). Perhaps some of the offenders would belong more appropriately in an institution not ending in university, but that thought probably offends the more liberal mind.

This article interestingly touches on another aspect and then veers away - that of the women and their choices.

"I once was a victim of abuse; now I am a victor.

Late one night, I was in a familiar house with a familiar somebody and he was uncharacteristically angry. He drug me from one end of the house to the other, by my hair."

We don't know from the article whether he was often angry and just over the top that time, if she (or something else) angered him, whether he was easily angered, or if she actually knew him well enough to be alone with him. But the question comes back to what about her choice to be alone with him. Did she not consider that a much larger guy could be a physical threat?

"That’s why I identify with these victims, those we know about and the great many more we don’t, at campuses across the country. I am one of them. They are me. Hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of us were ignored in our most vulnerable hour.

Who in college football is listening to their voices? To our voices? Who is putting themselves in their shoes? Who is looking out for them, for us?"

How about a lot of these women are putting themselves in those shoes? That they fail to balance the notoriety of being with a star athlete - "celebrity status" - knowing that a competitive athlete is probably an aggressive person - against a more rational thought of self protection. Of course, it's always easier to blame someone or something else when things go wrong. Sure we shouldn't blame the victim (political correctness if nothing else), but as a society we certainly need to regain some sense of self control and self responsibility.

 

[KBVol]

This keeps getting confused in the media, and to an extent here as well.

This isn't a sexual assault case. This is a case about administrative procedures...about whether the University of Tennessee properly adhered to the requirements of Title IX of the US Code as it applies to sexual discrimination, sexual harassment, and sexual assault in higher education.

In short, it's a lot more about policies and SOPs than it is about what happened in a dormitory room or a student's apartment.

There are (or are not, as the case may be) criminal cases for getting to the truth of the latter.

Easy to get distracted by the salacious details surrounding the (real or exaggerated or made-up) incidents that opened the door to the possibility of a Title IX violation, but that's not what the judge, prosecutors, or defendants will be looking at in this case. This is about phone calls and meetings and emails, not dates, drinking and gettin' nekkid.

It's a pity the vast majority of the media can't keep up.

But...tabloid headlines sell.

The vast majority of the media has no interest in "keeping up". They have their narrative based on their biases and that's all they need.

 

[chargervol]

The vast majority of the media has no interest in "keeping up". They have their narrative based on their biases and that's all they need.

The bias also probably comes down to the bottom line.
"Big evil university lets fb players rape as many women as they want", probably gets more clicks than -

"A few, but below average for a major university, accusations of sexual abuse have been made but despite the lack of a single rape conviction, a lawsuit for monetary gain has advanced".

 

[Remy]

An interesting article (College football is breaking my heart) regarding abuse and college athletes - yes, UT gets mentioned again in passing

College football is breaking my heart

Again the blame is heaped on the schools and the male participants - pretty much rightly so, but it fails, as most others also do, to point out the other contributing factors. The emphasis on winning above all else - scholarship, sportsmanship, common sense, and even the most basic - the core business of universities (and it isn't sports). Perhaps some of the offenders would belong more appropriately in an institution not ending in university, but that thought probably offends the more liberal mind.

This article interestingly touches on another aspect and then veers away - that of the women and their choices.

"I once was a victim of abuse; now I am a victor.

Late one night, I was in a familiar house with a familiar somebody and he was uncharacteristically angry. He drug me from one end of the house to the other, by my hair."

We don't know from the article whether he was often angry and just over the top that time, if she (or something else) angered him, whether he was easily angered, or if she actually knew him well enough to be alone with him. But the question comes back to what about her choice to be alone with him. Did she not consider that a much larger guy could be a physical threat?

"That’s why I identify with these victims, those we know about and the great many more we don’t, at campuses across the country. I am one of them. They are me. Hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of us were ignored in our most vulnerable hour.

Who in college football is listening to their voices? To our voices? Who is putting themselves in their shoes? Who is looking out for them, for us?"

How about a lot of these women are putting themselves in those shoes? That they fail to balance the notoriety of being with a star athlete - "celebrity status" - knowing that a competitive athlete is probably an aggressive person - against a more rational thought of self protection. Of course, it's always easier to blame someone or something else when things go wrong. Sure we shouldn't blame the victim (political correctness if nothing else), but as a society we certainly need to regain some sense of self control and self responsibility.

Who was looking out for the Duke lacrosse players? Who was looking out for the frat and it's members at UVA falsely accused of rape in Rolling Stone magazine?

 

[CAVPUT]

Settle

 

[AM64]

Who was looking out for the Duke lacrosse players? Who was looking out for the frat and it's members at UVA falsely accused of rape in Rolling Stone magazine?

That's the point; the perception is generally that the female is the victim - a helpless victim. So many of the incidents seem to be consensual or begin that way, so there's plenty of blame to go around. In the end most of the women could have avoided being a "victim" by simply choosing not to be involved. Siding with safety over popularity shouldn't be a difficult choice; it's not like the risks are an unknown. There's no excuse for violence or abuse, but tell that to alcohol or drug addled immature minds in a sexually charged atmosphere - just better to not be there.

 

[butchna]

That's the point; the perception is generally that the female is the victim - a helpless victim. So many of the incidents seem to be consensual or begin that way, so there's plenty of blame to go around. In the end most of the women could have avoided being a "victim" by simply choosing not to be involved. Siding with safety over popularity shouldn't be a difficult choice; it's not like the risks are an unknown. There's no excuse for violence or abuse, but tell that to alcohol or drug addled immature minds in a sexually charged atmosphere - just better to not be there.

Still sounds like you're defending an actual rape situation with the "just better not to be there". Those of us believing that our players have been falsely accused, prolly also believe a young woman can attend a social gathering without expectation of sexual assault. :unsure:

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Settle

No.



At least, not until time and realization that the plaintiff has no case brings the price down to a point where future attempts at a money grab are discouraged.

In other words, settle for a 5-digit amount? Sure. 7-digit amount? Never. 6-digit? Only if the lawyer has been working on the case 2-3 years and realizes his 33%-50% share is absolutely not worth all the work put in.

Don't even let the dude break even. Make him aware that he'd get more for his time chasing ambulances than organizing this kind of gold digging scheme again.

Under those conditions, sure. Settle. Otherwise: No.

 

[volfan102455]

This keeps getting confused in the media, and to an extent here as well.

This isn't a sexual assault case. This is a case about administrative procedures...about whether the University of Tennessee properly adhered to the requirements of Title IX of the US Code as it applies to sexual discrimination, sexual harassment, and sexual assault in higher education.

In short, it's a lot more about policies and SOPs than it is about what happened in a dormitory room or a student's apartment.

There are (or are not, as the case may be) criminal cases for getting to the truth of the latter.

Easy to get distracted by the salacious details surrounding the (real or exaggerated or made-up) incidents that opened the door to the possibility of a Title IX violation, but that's not what the judge, prosecutors, or defendants will be looking at in this case. This is about phone calls and meetings and emails, not dates, drinking and gettin' nekkid.

It's a pity the vast majority of the media can't keep up.

But...tabloid headlines sell.

This! The media will not concentrate on what the lawsuit is really about because there is no story there.

 

[volfan102455]

An interesting article (College football is breaking my heart) regarding abuse and college athletes - yes, UT gets mentioned again in passing

College football is breaking my heart

Again the blame is heaped on the schools and the male participants - pretty much rightly so, but it fails, as most others also do, to point out the other contributing factors. The emphasis on winning above all else - scholarship, sportsmanship, common sense, and even the most basic - the core business of universities (and it isn't sports). Perhaps some of the offenders would belong more appropriately in an institution not ending in university, but that thought probably offends the more liberal mind.

This article interestingly touches on another aspect and then veers away - that of the women and their choices.

"I once was a victim of abuse; now I am a victor.

Late one night, I was in a familiar house with a familiar somebody and he was uncharacteristically angry. He drug me from one end of the house to the other, by my hair."

We don't know from the article whether he was often angry and just over the top that time, if she (or something else) angered him, whether he was easily angered, or if she actually knew him well enough to be alone with him. But the question comes back to what about her choice to be alone with him. Did she not consider that a much larger guy could be a physical threat?

"That’s why I identify with these victims, those we know about and the great many more we don’t, at campuses across the country. I am one of them. They are me. Hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of us were ignored in our most vulnerable hour.

Who in college football is listening to their voices? To our voices? Who is putting themselves in their shoes? Who is looking out for them, for us?"

How about a lot of these women are putting themselves in those shoes? That they fail to balance the notoriety of being with a star athlete - "celebrity status" - knowing that a competitive athlete is probably an aggressive person - against a more rational thought of self protection. Of course, it's always easier to blame someone or something else when things go wrong. Sure we shouldn't blame the victim (political correctness if nothing else), but as a society we certainly need to regain some sense of self control and self responsibility.

The problem with this article is that is classifies ALL based on the action of a very FEW. It is an insult to the majority of the players many of whom are outstanding members of their universities. It also classifies all incidents as the classical assault situation - if that were the case then the cases that have been dismissed would have not been dismissed.

If this were not about football players, who some in the media see as being among the privileged, but about a community that contained folks of certain racial characteristics - those same media folks would be saying it isn't fail to classify the entire community as bad. And that same media would be making excuses for what was happening in that community.

 

[drylo]

If this were not about football players, who some in the media see as being among the privileged, but about a community that contained folks of certain racial characteristics

I agree with what you're saying, and there's a certain irony in the part I quoted above (namely, that the football players involved are almost always of one particular race that these same media types would typically be overly protective of... but they're football players, so that cancels it out, I guess).

In reality, I think it has more to do with signaling contra the stereotypical jock/redneck/Southern college football fan (i.e. perceived "SEC culture," if you will) than the players themselves. As I've noted previously, everybody is "anti-rape," so this whole thing isn't really about being "anti-rape"--it's about signaling how you're not like "them" (how virtuous you are, etc.).