Taliban Taking Over Afghanistan - Does anyone care?

Do you care?

  • No

    Votes: 40 23.1%

  • Hell No

    Votes: 48 27.7%

  • Yes, we should invade and send in Troops

    Votes: 25 14.5%

  • I like Pie

    Votes: 60 34.7%
  • Total voters
    173
#7,201
#7,201
rjd970 said:
All of that is fair. And I’m not defending how this was handled. There was an epic failure of leadership here. I still think with the same information there would have been similar bungles with other presidents, but that is a “what if” that is impossible to argue. Biden deserves the blame because he was in charge.

He gets credit for actually leaving and gets all the blame for how it was handled.
Click to expand...

Per his ramblings yesterday he does not get credit for leaving since he said he no choice.
 
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#7,202
#7,202
I think it's funny watching the "tHeY ReAcHeD OuT 19 tImEs" crowd try to blame this on the people that are stuck there. They also told them there was nothing to worry about and the ANA could easily control the Taliban. And really up until these final weeks when things were obviously too far gone they were touting the ANA's numerical and technical superiority. My guess would be they didn't want to admit the ANA was a colossal failure because that would encourage the entire military to fold, which in hindsight it didn't need the motivation to do. So instead of giving people fair warning they just watched it happen and chose to blame those they didn't inform.
 
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#7,203
#7,203
hog88 said:
Per his ramblings yesterday he does not get credit for leaving since he said he no choice.
Click to expand...

He is the CIC. The buck stops with him. If he gets ultimate blame for how it was handled he gets ultimate credit for ending it.
 
#7,204
#7,204
volinbham said:
I also add I'm not blaming Biden for everything that went wrong.

I am blaming him for:

1) letting politics and optics drive his decision making on the withdrawal
2) painting a rosier picture of the situation than he knew to be the case
3) going back on his pledge to get people out and do whatever it takes
4) not being transparent and not taking questions on this critical situation
5) blame shifting all that went wrong and claiming "extraordinary success" on an action that was nothing of the sort
6) basically telling people to move on; this is over

It is failure of leadership in the face of conditions turning worse than anticipated where I focus my critique. Some of those conditions were the result of 1) and 2) but some were beyond his control.
Click to expand...
7. Acting like a richard during the dignified transfer
 
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#7,207
#7,207
DancingOutlaw said:
I think it's funny watching the "tHeY ReAcHeD OuT 19 tImEs" crowd try to blame this on the people that are stuck there. They also told them there was nothing to worry about and the ANA could easily control the Taliban. And really up until these final weeks when things were obviously too far gone they were touting the ANA's numerical and technical superiority. My guess would be they didn't want to admit the ANA was a colossal failure because that would encourage the entire military to fold, which in hindsight it didn't need the motivation to do. So instead of giving people fair warning they just watched it happen and chose to blame those they didn't inform.
Click to expand...

I believe at one point they told us they didn't want to do an evacuation operation earlier because it would signal lack of faith in ANA. LOL.
 
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#7,208
#7,208
I also question the continual "ISIS-K is the mortal enemy of the Taliban" rhetoric like they are 2 completely different entities that never cooperate. Didn't the Taliban release a bunch of ISIS-K that were imprisoned at Bagram? Seems if you have a chance to disappear some of the worst of the worst of your mortal enemy you take advantage rather than turn them loose.
 
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#7,210
#7,210
rjd970 said:
All of that is fair. And I’m not defending how this was handled. There was an epic failure of leadership here. I still think with the same information there would have been similar bungles with other presidents, but that is a “what if” that is impossible to argue. Biden deserves the blame because he was in charge.

He gets credit for actually leaving and gets all the blame for how it was handled.
Click to expand...
Sounds an awful lot like you are defending how this was handled. I believe what you are doing is called "victim blaming". Biden handled this atrociously and made promises to these people that he failed to keep. That is a failure in leadership. He's the President of the United States, considered the most powerful person in the free world, and he screwed the pooch on an epic scale. Might someone else sitting in the Oval Office had done the same? Possibly, but he's the one currently occupying that seat. It's on him.
 
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#7,211
#7,211
volinbham said:
I also question the continual "ISIS-K is the mortal enemy of the Taliban" rhetoric like they are 2 completely different entities that never cooperate. Didn't the Taliban release a bunch of ISIS-K that were imprisoned at Bagram? Seems if you have a chance to disappear some of the worst of the worst of your mortal enemy you take advantage rather than turn them loose.
Click to expand...
I have issues with those two as well. Gore can ISIS k hold large areas in a city overrun with Taliban. They weren't fighting each other.... And knew where each other were..... But still continued to operate outside of the airport in Kabul. They was at the very least some cooperation or ambiguity about each other going on.

There are a lot of very questionable things about this mess that don't add up.
 
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#7,213
#7,213
hog88 said:
He said yesterday that he didn't have a choice. You don't get credit for doing things you had no choice in.
Click to expand...

Yes you do. He is the guy in charge or he isn’t. He gets blame and credit, fair or not.

If he doesn’t get credit for us finally leaving, then who does? Who made that call if Biden didn’t?

And I guess now we are believing his ramblings? Or is it just certain parts now?
 
#7,214
#7,214
rjd970 said:
Yes you do. He is the guy in charge or he isn’t. He gets blame and credit, fair or not.

If he doesn’t get credit for us finally leaving, then who does? Who made that call if Biden didn’t?

And I guess now we are believing his ramblings? Or is it just certain parts now?
Click to expand...
To be fair Biden himself is asking you to believe some of his ramblings while ignoring others.
 
#7,216
#7,216
rjd970 said:
Yes you do. He is the guy in charge or he isn’t. He gets blame and credit, fair or not.

If he doesn’t get credit for us finally leaving, then who does? Who made that call if Biden didn’t?

And I guess now we are believing his ramblings? Or is it just certain parts now?
Click to expand...

I’m just pointing out how he and his defenders want the credit but none of the blame. If he as he claims had no choice he gets no credit.
 
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#7,217
#7,217
DancingOutlaw said:
I think it's funny watching the "tHeY ReAcHeD OuT 19 tImEs" crowd try to blame this on the people that are stuck there. They also told them there was nothing to worry about and the ANA could easily control the Taliban. And really up until these final weeks when things were obviously too far gone they were touting the ANA's numerical and technical superiority. My guess would be they didn't want to admit the ANA was a colossal failure because that would encourage the entire military to fold, which in hindsight it didn't need the motivation to do. So instead of giving people fair warning they just watched it happen and chose to blame those they didn't inform.
Click to expand...

They were morons for staying anywhere close to the date upon which the US forces were leaving.
 
#7,218
#7,218
rjd970 said:
Ok - but at the end of the day we all agree he is the one in charge, no?
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He is the president in name. I'm not so sure (he doesn't appear to be sure either), he is in charge though.

He is the president though, this happened under his watch, so he's responsible.
 
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#7,219
#7,219
KB5252 said:
He is the president in name. I'm not so sure (he doesn't appear to be sure either), he is in charge though.

He is the president though, this happened under his watch, so he's responsible.
Click to expand...

What? How can you believe both those statements?
 
#7,220
#7,220
rjd970 said:
Yes you do. He is the guy in charge or he isn’t. He gets blame and credit, fair or not.

If he doesn’t get credit for us finally leaving, then who does? Who made that call if Biden didn’t?

And I guess now we are believing his ramblings? Or is it just certain parts now?
Click to expand...

Agreed he gets credit.

That said his logic for explaining his decision was twisted between I had no choice to I'm the one who did this. More of the he's bad at his job of leadership
 
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#7,222
#7,222
hog88 said:
I’m just pointing out how he and his defenders want the credit but none of the blame. If he as he claims had no choice he gets no credit.
Click to expand...

And his detractors seem to want the opposite - all blame and no credit.

The last American soldier has left Afghanistan. That is something universally agreed upon in this thread as good. It happened under his watch.

How it happened leaves a lot to be desired but he actually pulled the trigger and got it done. I’m not really sure how you even argue that.
 
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#7,223
#7,223
volinbham said:
okay, you are an American citizen with an Afghan family that State hasn't cleared to leave. Do you leave your family behind or do you stay and keep trying to get clearance for your family to join you so you all can leave.
Click to expand...

If that is the case then State needs to answer to it and it has been a problem dating back to other administrations.
 
#7,224
#7,224
rjd970 said:
What? How can you believe both those statements?
Click to expand...
Do you believe Biden is in charge? Not just a figure head, but making the decisions and plans? At this point I don't, and I think that may be part of the problem in why things seem to be getting more sideways.

Ultimately he is the president and figure head. Right or wrong they are laid at his feet. It's part of the job.
 
#7,225
#7,225
KB5252 said:
Do you believe Biden is in charge? Not just a figure head, but making the decisions and plans? At this point I don't, and I think that may be part of the problem in why things seem to be getting more sideways.

Ultimately he is the president and figure head. Right or wrong they are laid at his feet. It's part of the job.
Click to expand...

If you don’t believe he is in charge, then why are you blaming him for the bungled withdrawal? If you answer because he is President, then I don’t know how you don’t say he gets credit for making the decision to leave.

I’m not following why you can have it
both ways.

He gets blame because he is President, but for any credit, he wasn’t really the one in charge?
 
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