the consequences of the spread

[hog88]

So you wouldn't call the fun n gun a spread offense?

Last time I checked, it won a lot of SEC titles.

No, the offense I keep hearing CBJ will run is the read option "spread". Meaning a running QB.

 

[Vol8188]

No, the offense I keep hearing CBJ will run is the read option "spread". Meaning a running QB.

How does that make it less likely to work? Read option is a huge offensive advantage that most all teams are using today, in some capacity. Even the pros are running it, because it gives you a numbers advantage on offesne. In a normal offense, the qb hands the ball, therefor you have 1 less blocker. Here the qb always occupies and reads 1 backside defender, creating better numbers in the running game.


And if you want to talk about options teams that have one the NC, I'm sure there's atleast 20-30 of them.

Every NC Bear Bryant ever won.

Florida under Urban Meyer.

Every NC Nebraska ever won.

Most of the NC's Oklahoma ever won.

Probably every NC team prior to 1980 but after 1950.

 

[hog88]

^^ Hell lets go back to the single wing or wishbone then..

Give me a read option NC or SECC without Tebow or Newton? Just one? Take as long as you like.

 

[Vol8188]

^^ Hell lets go back to the single wing or wishbone then..

Give me a read option NC or SECC without Tebow or Newton? Just one? Take as long as you like.

Name an SEC read option team who ran the read option, outside of Auburn, Florida, and USCjr.....

Go on, take as long as you like.

 

[hog88]

Name an SEC read option team who ran the read option, outside of Auburn, Florida, and USCjr.....

Go on, take as long as you like.

Tam, LSU dabbled at it, Missu, Vandy, Ky has. MS state and OL Miss tried with that QB that came to UT with Ainge.

 

[Vol8188]

Tam, LSU dabbled at it, Missu, Vandy, Ky has. MS state and OL Miss tried with that QB that came to UT with Ainge.

Lol so you're basing everything off offenses teams "dabbled in" or ran for 1 year or less?

And last time I checked Tam just joined, and beat Alabama their first year in the SEC.

But of course you're right, the only reason KY, Vandy, and Missiouri have never won the NC is because of the spread option.

The day Kentucky runs the I formation is the day they win the NC!

 

[Vol8188]

P.S. Vandy was not a read option team.

 

[hog88]

Lol so you're basing everything off offenses teams "dabbled in" or ran for 1 year or less?

And last time I checked Tam just joined, and beat Alabama their first year in the SEC.

But of course you're right, the only reason KY, Vandy, and Missiouri have never won the NC is because of the spread option.

The day Kentucky runs the I formation is the day they win the NC!

I just stated that no team running the spread read option without Tebow or Newton taking the snaps have won either a NC or SECC.

It's a fact and its a fact that I don't see changing. Way too much speed on D in the SEC.

Yes TAM beat Bama this past year, lets see how they do this year. How did UF or AU work out once their freaks of nature left?

 

[99gator]

I just stated that no team running the spread read option without Tebow or Newton taking the snaps have won either a NC or SECC.

It's a fact and its a fact that I don't see changing. Way too much speed on D in the SEC.

Yes TAM beat Bama this past year, lets see how they do this year. How did UF or AU work out once their freaks of nature left?

i agree with this point, but would also state that johnny football is also a freak.

the point is accurate, in that system, a star qb is a must

 

[Orange_Crush]

^^ Hell lets go back to the single wing or wishbone then..

Give me a read option NC or SECC without Tebow or Newton? Just one? Take as long as you like.

Wow... Where to begin?

Faulty generalization:

Cherry Picking
Overwhelming Exception (i.e. Two of the recent four SECC, and SEC NC teams have been excluded)
Thought-terminating cliche (i.e. We all know the spread/option can't win the SEC.)

I hate Japanese cars. They all suck.

Show me one Japanese car in the Edmunds used car best bet list, besides a Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Mazda or Subaru. You won't find any Japanese cars.

 

[hog88]

i agree with this point, but would also state that johnny football is also a freak.

the point is accurate, in that system, a star qb is a must

The people that don't understand this have low football IQs.

I-formation power football + defense wins the war.

 

[hog88]

Wow... Where to begin?

Faulty generalization:

Cherry Picking
Overwhelming Exception (i.e. Two of the recent four SECC, and SEC NC teams have been excluded)
Thought-terminating cliche (i.e. We all know the spread/option can't win the SEC.)

Facts are facts.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Facts are facts.

Yes they are. The fact is that you committed three logical fallacies in quick succession, so your point remains unsupported.

:hi:

 

[99gator]

The people that don't understand this have low football IQs.

I-formation power football + defense wins the war.

to play devil's advocate, high schools are producing more and more of these athletes.

however, consistently convincing them to come to your school is another problem

 

[hog88]

Yes they are. The fact is that you committed three logical fallacies in quick succession, so your point remains unsupported.

:hi:

Typical when you can't refute. Criticize.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Typical when you can't refute. Criticize.

Um... I just refuted your argument on a logical basis. It wasn't a criticism. It was a breakdown of the logic that you used, which showed that you are using fallacious points to prove your argument.

Edit: To add bold for emphasis.

 

[FLVOL_79]

P.S. Vandy was not a real team.

Fixed your post.

 

[thebjd]

Um... I just refuted your argument on a logical basis. It wasn't a criticism. It was a breakdown of the logic that you used, which showed that you are using fallacious points to prove your argument.

Edit: To add bold for emphasis.

The best read option team ever in the SEC (UF during Tebow's senior year) was utterly destroyed by Bama with a pro-style offense and good defense.

 

[99gator]

The best read option team ever in the SEC (UF during Tebow's senior year) was utterly destroyed by Bama with a pro-style offense and good defense.

the 2008 gators would beat the snot out of the 2009 gators.

 

[Vol8188]

The people that don't understand this have low football IQs.

I-formation power football + defense wins the war.

Lol so every time the spread option works, we consider it an anomaly, right? Since we are now excluding Manziel, Newton, and Tebow.

And Nick Saban rarely ever runs the I formation, so I guess either he doesn't have a lot of wins......or you have a really low football IQ.

 

[Orange_Crush]

The best read option team ever in the SEC (UF during Tebow's senior year) was utterly destroyed by Bama with a pro-style offense and good defense.

That same style team was beaten by a read option team last year.

Are we really comparing single games to define the veracity of systems in a conference?

The read option spread won two national titles at UF. It won one at Auburn. It beat Bama this past year.

Short of special pleading, you can't deny that the read option has been successful in the SEC. The best "knock" on it has been the quality of QB play needed to run the read option, which isn't a "knock" on it. Every system relies on quality play at specific positions to be effective, just maybe not the same qualities that a read option needs.

I'm not saying that the read option would or would not be a success at UT. I am saying that a lot of fallacious thinking has been used to "prove" that it won't.

 

[Vol8188]

That same style team was beaten by a read option team last year.

Are we really comparing single games to define the veracity of systems in a conference?

The read option spread won two national titles at UF. It won one at Auburn. It beat Bama this past year.

Short of special pleading, you can't deny that the read option has been successful in the SEC. The best "knock" on it has been the quality of QB play needed to run the read option, which isn't a "knock" on it. Every system relies on quality play at specific positions to be effective, just maybe not the same qualities that a read option needs.

I'm not saying that the read option would or would not be a success at UT. I am saying that a lot of fallacious thinking has been used to "prove" that it won't.

Plus when you say "outside of Newton and Tebow" it's never worked. You eliminate a large portion of the opportunities it has had to work.

The only other 3 teams in the SEC who have really committed to such an offense, that I can think of, are USCjr, Ole Miss, and Miss St.

Obviously it's not fair to claim the read option doesn't work because those three garbage schools can't win a NC with it. And if you want a true testament to how beneficial the read option can be, look at the turn around at USCjr. They were UK bad before Spurrier installed the zone read.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Plus when you say "outside of Newton and Tebow" it's never worked. You eliminate a large portion of the opportunities it has had to work.

Yep, I posted the logical fallacies that described the above, and used a car analogy to reinforce it. I think I lost out by going too complicated with it. lol

The only other 3 teams in the SEC who have really committed to such an offense, that I can think of, are USCjr, Ole Miss, and Miss St.

Obviously it's not fair to claim the read option doesn't work because those three garbage schools can't win a NC with it. And if you want a true testament to how beneficial the read option can be, look at the turn around at USCjr. They were UK bad before Spurrier installed the zone read.

From a statistical perspective over the last, say 5-8 years, the zone read has been more successful in the SEC/SECC/NC picture, if we consider the ratios of the teams running zone read vss traditional pro-style offenses (fewer Zone read offenses in the SEC). Since 2006 (start of SEC string of NC wins), 2 of the 4 SEC teams that have won the NC ran the zone read. The ratio of zone read offenses compared to pro-style in the SEC is under-represented (far more pro-style).

Translation to the above: A far lesser percentage of pro-style offenses in the SEC win the SEC/NC, than the percentage of zone reads in the SEC.

Also from a statistical perspective, 4 of the last 8 NCs have been won by zone read teams. Three of those four pro-style wins were by Bama (indicating that pro-style systems are helping far fewer teams in the SEC than is being purported on this board.).

 

[Orange_Crush]

Typical when you can't refute. Criticize.

Um... I just refuted your argument on a logical basis. It wasn't a criticism. It was a breakdown of the logic that you used, which showed that you are using fallacious points to prove your argument.

Edit: To add bold for emphasis.

That same style team was beaten by a read option team last year.

Are we really comparing single games to define the veracity of systems in a conference?

The read option spread won two national titles at UF. It won one at Auburn. It beat Bama this past year.

Short of special pleading, you can't deny that the read option has been successful in the SEC. The best "knock" on it has been the quality of QB play needed to run the read option, which isn't a "knock" on it. Every system relies on quality play at specific positions to be effective, just maybe not the same qualities that a read option needs.

I'm not saying that the read option would or would not be a success at UT. I am saying that a lot of fallacious thinking has been used to "prove" that it won't.

Yep, I posted the logical fallacies that described the above, and used a car analogy to reinforce it. I think I lost out by going too complicated with it. lol



From a statistical perspective over the last, say 5-8 years, the zone read has been more successful in the SEC/SECC/NC picture, if we consider the ratios of the teams running zone read vss traditional pro-style offenses (fewer Zone read offenses in the SEC). Since 2006 (start of SEC string of NC wins), 2 of the 4 SEC teams that have won the NC ran the zone read. The ratio of zone read offenses compared to pro-style in the SEC is under-represented (far more pro-style).

Translation to the above: A far lesser percentage of pro-style offenses in the SEC win the SEC/NC, than the percentage of zone reads in the SEC.

Also from a statistical perspective, 4 of the last 8 NCs have been won by zone read teams. Three of those four pro-style wins were by Bama (indicating that pro-style systems are helping far fewer teams in the SEC than is being purported on this board.).

Hog88, by following up with statistics, do you understand the importance of my fallacy argument now? When you remove your special pleading and "argument by cliche/common wisdom", you argument falls apart.

The numbers show that the zone read has been incredibly successful at a SECC and NC level. The lack of representation by the pro style in the SECC/NC picture, besides Bama and LSU indicates that the pro-style wins are tied more to the being 3-deep in talent than the pro-style scheme itself.

As a matter of fact, the talent represented in the zone read teams to win the SECC/NC indicates that talent/recruiting is a big factor for the zone read also. I wonder what that should tell us...

I would lead towards: "It's not necessarily the scheme, but the talent."

 

[thebjd]

Plus when you say "outside of Newton and Tebow" it's never worked. You eliminate a large portion of the opportunities it has had to work.

The only other 3 teams in the SEC who have really committed to such an offense, that I can think of, are USCjr, Ole Miss, and Miss St.

Obviously it's not fair to claim the read option doesn't work because those three garbage schools can't win a NC with it. And if you want a true testament to how beneficial the read option can be, look at the turn around at USCjr. They were UK bad before Spurrier installed the zone read.

The cocks are not a zone read offense. They use it some to keep the pass rush off his quarterbacks. Zone blocking running schemes are not zone read teams. Shannahan uses zone blocking for example but he is not a zone read team.