The death of a school's tradition?

#151
#151
therealUT said:
Would you hold yourself to the same reserved judgment and thought process if you saw someone with a Nazi Swastika on their person, car, or house?
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You're really going to compare the nazis to the confederacy? That's sorta pathetic.
 
#153
#153
therealUT said:
You do know that the war starting when Federal Troops were attacked, right?

Would you champion a team that sports Nazi paraphernalia? Would you reserve judgment? Would you state that it is just a celebration of the men who answered the call?



Nothing about the cause was noble.



I did. I do think UT should improve their enrollment standards.
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I would love to spend the rest of the night getting enlightened by you and your amazing talents of critical analysis. You are teaching me so much about what is noble and just. Alas, I must suit up for the night shift at Walmart. They are telling me I may have a shot at the day shift one day!
Please keep reminding yourself that you have the ability to judge the morals of hundreds of thousands of men that decided to leave their families and farms to go warring just for a change of pace. And all those Union troops "recruited" from the slums of New York...you know the recent immigrants that couldn't even speak English...they knew precisely why they were going to war.
Your grasp of the complex facts surrounding the start of the war are amazing...Shelby Foote himself would have been impressed. In the end I am sure you will sleep well knowing that you are morally superior to a simple Walmart employee.:salute:
 
#154
#154
therealUT said:
You do know that the war starting when Federal Troops were attacked, right?

Would you champion a team that sports Nazi paraphernalia? Would you reserve judgment? Would you state that it is just a celebration of the men who answered the call?
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There were good Germans. Although, sporting Nazi paraphanelia would hardly be celebrating that fact.
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#155
#155
therealUT said:
Many proud, brave, and noble men died fighting under the Swastika, as well. Most German Soldiers could have cared less about a German Superman or World Domination; this in no way means that the reasons the Nazi's went to war were not based upon a perception of racial superiority and the desire for world domination.

The reason for secession by Southern Governments was slavery; there are no 'ifs', 'ands', or 'buts' about it.

Sure, there were many people who fought for the South simply out of feelings of loyalty and obligation to their states (i.e., Robert E. Lee); this does not justify secession and is not an effective argument for stating that the reasons for secession were not completely rooted in slavery.
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Great post.
 
#156
#156
IPorange said:
If you want to believe a fairy tale history about noble causes of freedom by taking up arms against Darth Vader of the North, have at it. Don't get mad because many people actually know the story.
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I found this funny. Well done.
 
#157
#157
hmanvolfan said:
You're really going to compare the nazis to the confederacy? That's sorta pathetic.
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gasguy98 said:
Pathetic at the least.
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He's not arguing that the Confederacy was as bad as Nazi Germany, he's saying it would be crazy for Germans to wave Nazi flags and claim they're celebrating their heritage or that they're doing it to honor brave German soldiers.
 
#158
#158
Lincoln offered to let the South keep slavery if they would just rejoin the union. The war was about far more than just slavery. Yes, the states that seceeded had quite a few slave-powered agricultural dependancies. But don't fool yourself into thinking the Union fought to bring the south back in line just to stop slavery.
 
#159
#159
Wolfeman_Vol said:
Lincoln offered to let the South keep slavery if they would just rejoin the union. The war was about far more than just slavery. Yes, the states that seceeded had quite a few slave-powered agricultural dependancies. But don't fool yourself into thinking the Union fought to bring the south back in line over slavery.
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The debate really doesn't have anything to do with the North's motives.
 
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#160
#160
I can understand why they want to do it. I don't agree with it necessarily.

The only issue I see(doesn't bother me personally) is the Rebel flag. That and the band playing the confederate anthem.
 
#164
#164
gasguy98 said:
The stuff at Ole Miss, the name Rebels, the Confederate battle flag. To me thay are celebrating the men that answered the call to arms to defend their homes.
I am defending that. You are attacking it. You don't want to celebrate the men that fought for a noble cause.
Did you actually go to UT? If so we really need to improve enrollment standards.
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I have two degrees from UT, graduated with honors, and came in miles above the enrollment standard. Try again.
 
#165
#165
gasguy98 said:
I would love to spend the rest of the night getting enlightened by you and your amazing talents of critical analysis. You are teaching me so much about what is noble and just. Alas, I must suit up for the night shift at Walmart. They are telling me I may have a shot at the day shift one day!
Please keep reminding yourself that you have the ability to judge the morals of hundreds of thousands of men that decided to leave their families and farms to go warring just for a change of pace. And all those Union troops "recruited" from the slums of New York...you know the recent immigrants that couldn't even speak English...they knew precisely why they were going to war.
Your grasp of the complex facts surrounding the start of the war are amazing...Shelby Foote himself would have been impressed. In the end I am sure you will sleep well knowing that you are morally superior to a simple Walmart employee.:salute:
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No one is judging the morals of the soldiers. Again, provide the post where anyone vilified the soldiers that died. You are arguing against something that isn't being presented, because it is a lot easier than defending the fact that the confederate battle flag and the confederate anthem means something completely different than "honoring the fallen" to most anyone who doesn't identify with the confederacy-- which you clearly do.
 
#166
#166
IPorange said:
No one is judging the morals of the soldiers. Again, provide the post where anyone vilified the soldiers that died. You are arguing against something that isn't being presented, because it is a lot easier than defending the fact that the confederate battle flag and the confederate anthem means something completely different than "honoring the fallen" to most anyone who doesn't identify with the confederacy-- which you clearly do.
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Sigh...
Why don't you enlighten me on what is being presented.
Yes, the battle flag and anthem are an homage to the valor and spirit of the average Confederate soldier. I would think someone as highlly educated as you could realize this by now from the numerous post I have made in this thread.
I submit that others want to think these symbols represent the institution of slavery and only the institution of slavery. Those of us that have studied this tragic period in our history in depth know that it is far more complex than slavery which is why I posted some facts that many people may not be aware of. The history of the conflict has been sanitized by Northern historians for 140 years. The victors of a conflict get to write about it, thus we are taught there were the good guys and the bad guys and that is not only very untrue but a slap in the face to the 300K plus men that died under the "red flags of rebellion".
Are we clear now?
 
#168
#168
gasguy98 said:


If they were guilty of a crime why weren't they prosecuted? Even Jefferson Davis was never tried.

If you would have bothered to read my earlier post, you would know that I am in no way attempting to defend slavery. I am defending the thousands of men that were simple farm boys rallying to a call to arms to defend their homes against an invading foreign army. Many proud, brave and noble men died fighting under the Stars and Bars and I for one do think it is something to remember and defend.

If you want to educate yourself beyond elementary facts there are numerous books that delve into the complex issues leading up to Sumpter. "When in the course of Human Events" (mentioned in one of my earlier post) and "Company Aytch, or a Sideshow of the Big Show" is the best narrative ever written by the common foot soldier in the War. It is a fascinating read and explains that the average Southerner was not fighting on behalf of slavery.
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Elementary fact number one: there is no 'p' in Sumter.
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#169
#169
therealUT said:
First, this is all conjecture from a junior at Ole Miss.

Second, what exactly do you think "Rebels" is historically referring to? If you guessed: the states that seceded in order to protect the institution of slavery, you would be correct.
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I'm gonna stop you right there. Secession was about states rights NOT slavery. Slavery was endorsed as much by the North as it was by the South, in fact the Northern economy depended on the institution. The Myth that the Civil War was fought over slavery is something that has been perpetuated by those who won the war. Please feel free to research the subject on your own but if you'd like a reliable source feel free to continue reading here: Civil War's dirty secret about slavery - CNN.com

I'm not endorsing slavery or anything like that and I'm certainly no racist, but I am very tired of this notion that the Civil War was about slavery. It's a Myth commonly used to make southern folks seem ignorant and bigoted.
 
#170
#170
Also I see a lot of people comparing the Swastika to the Confederate flag. Here's a few things....
-The Nazis killed millions and were generally pretty evil.
-The Swastika is extremely commonplace in southeast Asia as it is, in it's origin, a good luck charm from the region (I have a friend teaching in S. Korea at the moment and he was surprised by it.)
-The Confederate flag is offensive to some people, it just is. If you had family that fought for the CSA I have no problem with you honoring the flag but generally it has a negative connotation that you should be aware of.

My point is, context. I don't find the swastika offensive if say, a Buddhist is baring one, because it's a religious symbol.

I also don't find the Confederate flag to be offensive either if it's being displayed as a form of historical observation i.e. re-enactment or anniversary.
 
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#171
#171
NickZ4UT said:
I'm gonna stop you right there. Secession was about states rights NOT slavery. Slavery was endorsed as much by the North as it was by the South, in fact the Northern economy depended on the institution. The Myth that the Civil War was fought over slavery is something that has been perpetuated by those who won the war. Please feel free to research the subject on your own but if you'd like a reliable source feel free to continue reading here: Civil War's dirty secret about slavery - CNN.com

I'm not endorsing slavery or anything like that and I'm certainly no racist, but I am very tired of this notion that the Civil War was about slavery. It's a Myth commonly used to make southern folks seem ignorant and bigoted.
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Do you really think there is a Civil War without slavery?
 
#172
#172
NickZ4UT said:
I'm gonna stop you right there. Secession was about states rights NOT slavery. Slavery was endorsed as much by the North as it was by the South, in fact the Northern economy depended on the institution. The Myth that the Civil War was fought over slavery is something that has been perpetuated by those who won the war. Please feel free to research the subject on your own but if you'd like a reliable source feel free to continue reading here: Civil War's dirty secret about slavery - CNN.com

I'm not endorsing slavery or anything like that and I'm certainly no racist, but I am very tired of this notion that the Civil War was about slavery. It's a Myth commonly used to make southern folks seem ignorant and bigoted.
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Slavery not being one of the major issues of the war is a myth commonly used to make southern folks feel better.
 
#173
#173
gasguy98 said:
The Rebublican party was formed by northern industrialist that wanted to continue to be supported by the feds through the tariffs on Southern ports. The abolitionist movement was a "fringe" part of the party (sort of like the anti abortion fringe in the party now). and not a huge influence on Republican policy. They were about money.) With the election of Lincoln (who wasn't even on the ballet in many southern states) the wealthy slave owners feared that the policy would be one of non expansion of slavery into the western territories. They knew their immediate interest were not under assault. May I recommend "When in the Course of Human Events" by Charles Adams, one of the worlds foremost authorities on taxation (and native New Yorker) for a deeper look at the causes of the war. As you know, the moral issue of slavery was not used to justify the war until 1863, when world opinion was against the Feds and the very real possibility of British involvement on part of the South was feared.
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Non-expansion of slavery into the territories meant the eventual extinction of slavery, and wealthy southerners knew it. They also knew that if a war was going to have to be fought over it, it needed to be fought sooner rather than later. Ergo Fort Sumter.

gasguy98 said:
The stuff at Ole Miss, the name Rebels, the Confederate battle flag. To me thay are celebrating the men that answered the call to arms to defend their homes.
I am defending that. You are attacking it. You don't want to celebrate the men that fought for a noble cause.
Did you actually go to UT? If so we really need to improve enrollment standards.
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Protecting your home is a noble cause. Protecting your home because it started a war to defend its practice of keeping humans as cattle certainly muddies the water a bit.
 
#174
#174
NickZ4UT said:
Also I see a lot of people comparing the Swastika to the Confederate flag. Here's a few things....
-The Nazis killed millions and were generally pretty evil.
-The Swastika is extremely commonplace in southeast Asia as it is, in it's origin, a good luck charm from the region (I have a friend teaching in S. Korea at the moment and he was surprised by it.)
-The Confederate flag is offensive to some people, it just is. If you had family that fought for the CSA I have no problem with you honoring the flag but generally it has a negative connotation that you should be aware of.

My point is, context. I don't find the swastika offensive if say, a Buddhist is baring one, because it's a religious symbol.

I also don't find the Confederate flag to be offensive either if it's being displayed as a form of historical observation i.e. re-enactment or anniversary.
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I don't know about killing millions, but Klansmen proudly carrying the Confederate flag in the Jim Crow south while lynching innocent African-Americans could also be seen many as equally evil.
 
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#175
#175
Lawrence Wright said:
I don't know about killing millions, but Klansmen proudly carrying the Confederate flag in the Jim Crow south while lynching innocent African-Americans could also be seen many as equally evil.
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They were just honoring the fallen confederate soldiers and their heritage. Had nothing to do with the lynchings.

/sarcasm
 
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