The general USC debate thread (merged)

#51
#51
junder13 said:
One point I would like to make is that its a shame the true violators (reggie bush, oj mayo, etc) will not suffer any consequences themselves. USC simply turned a blind eye in many cases (maybe not all).

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I agree with most of your post with the exception of the lines I quoted above. If you actually think that Div I head coaches dont know what is going on before a player is on campus, you are naive.
 
#52
#52
i think it's very unlikely they get a postseason ban in football. the pac-10 commish said as much btw.
 
#53
#53
Montes schemes and coaching were fine, in fact brilliant at times. He was limited by a paper thin dline and massive injuries at linebacker. Personnel was the problem, not coaching.

Play calling? Questionable at times. I question it even more now that Chaney has made public comments that it helps when the hc sends in the correct protection packages with the play....

junder13 said:
My information is 2nd-hand but from someone on the committee who passed the info off to a Notre Dame fan whom I associate with. I am confident this info is solid.


Not here to argue lane & monte's abilities. I questioned lane's play-calling during the season (so not sour grapes) and I believe monte's a great coach but wide open offenses may be more difficult for him to scheme against. Time will tell...
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#54
#54
Vol Mania 21 said:
ya i'm clueless, i played ball for a NCAA school. i agree the kids know its a violation, but if it benefits them or their families when they've grown up having nothing, i don't blame them. don't kid yourself, the coaches know more than you think
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Being from a poor background doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the athlete is responsible for breaking rules and should thus suffer some type of consequence(s) -- even if they've graduated or left school (ie Reggie Bush, OJ Mayo, etc). It's black and white. They took illegal benefits while on scholarship. They should suffer consequences along with the athletic department and those that illicted the offers (boosters). It's called responsibility. Income level does not lower standards for right and wrong.

Your mindset is sad. Where is your sense of accountability?

I like the idea one poster said of the school suing the athlete. Memphis vacated 38-wins because Derick Rose cheated on his SAT. OJ Mayo helped put USC's bball program on probation. Reggie Bush had an estimated excess of $200k in benefits at USC and their consequences are yet to come. Marcus Camby helped cause UMass to vacate a Final Four season. There are probably a lot of other examples but these are all stars now at the professional rank who helped cause (I know there were others - coaches, in some cases, and, of course, boosters) grief to their school and suffered no consequences.

It's easy to not think about it as much since this hasn't happened at UT but it could...there are plenty of wealthy alums from UT who are hungry for more wins. Until the NCAA changes the way it allocates blame and consequences, any university with a wealthy, avid fan base could have a major recruit/player take benefits before leaving the school.

I would like to see consequences for the athletes going forward so perhaps it's less likely to happen in the future.
 
#57
#57
junder13 said:
Being from a poor background doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the athlete is responsible for breaking rules and should thus suffer some type of consequence(s) -- even if they've graduated or left school (ie Reggie Bush, OJ Mayo, etc). It's black and white. They took illegal benefits while on scholarship. They should suffer consequences along with the athletic department and those that illicted the offers (boosters). It's called responsibility. Income level does not lower standards for right and wrong.

Your mindset is sad. Where is your sense of accountability?

I like the idea one poster said of the school suing the athlete. Memphis vacated 38-wins because Derick Rose cheated on his SAT. OJ Mayo helped put USC's bball program on probation. Reggie Bush had an estimated excess of $200k in benefits at USC and their consequences are yet to come. Marcus Camby helped cause UMass to vacate a Final Four season. There are probably a lot of other examples but these are all stars now at the professional rank who helped cause (I know there were others - coaches, in some cases, and, of course, boosters) grief to their school and suffered no consequences.

It's easy to not think about it as much since this hasn't happened at UT but it could...there are plenty of wealthy alums from UT who are hungry for more wins. Until the NCAA changes the way it allocates blame and consequences, any university with a wealthy, avid fan base could have a major recruit/player take benefits before leaving the school.

I would like to see consequences for the athletes going forward so perhaps it's less likely to happen in the future.
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In a way I agree with you but at the same time, if a kid's family is in a bad situation I can't really blame them for taking the money to help out. Now of course this isn't the situation 99.9% of the time; most of the time it is motivated by greed. I must also point out most of the time the teams or boosters are initiating these illegal activities the kids are just taking what is offered to them.
 
#62
#62
junder13 said:
Being from a poor background doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the athlete is responsible for breaking rules and should thus suffer some type of consequence(s) -- even if they've graduated or left school (ie Reggie Bush, OJ Mayo, etc). It's black and white. They took illegal benefits while on scholarship. They should suffer consequences along with the athletic department and those that illicted the offers (boosters). It's called responsibility. Income level does not lower standards for right and wrong.

Your mindset is sad. Where is your sense of accountability?

I like the idea one poster said of the school suing the athlete. Memphis vacated 38-wins because Derick Rose cheated on his SAT. OJ Mayo helped put USC's bball program on probation. Reggie Bush had an estimated excess of $200k in benefits at USC and their consequences are yet to come. Marcus Camby helped cause UMass to vacate a Final Four season. There are probably a lot of other examples but these are all stars now at the professional rank who helped cause (I know there were others - coaches, in some cases, and, of course, boosters) grief to their school and suffered no consequences.

It's easy to not think about it as much since this hasn't happened at UT but it could...there are plenty of wealthy alums from UT who are hungry for more wins. Until the NCAA changes the way it allocates blame and consequences, any university with a wealthy, avid fan base could have a major recruit/player take benefits before leaving the school.

I would like to see consequences for the athletes going forward so perhaps it's less likely to happen in the future.
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You're exactly right, man...extremely well said. In now way should one's financial standing dictate their decisions or morality. I think some of the guys bickering with you have to think that maybe these kids just weren't quality, upstanding individuals to begin with. I do think, that for the most part, coaches are more involved and aware than any of us know. Sadly, its just a means to an end for most student athletes. I think the value of an education is being disrespected and downlplayed.
 
#64
#64
kohlrums said:
I would honestly rather have Wilcox-a young up and coming coach who is used to dealing with these offenses. Plus, Monte is in his Seventies. Sooner or later you lose some MPH on your fastball, and I actually thought that was happening last year with him.
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I thought so too! Won't entirely blame him for the d, but it slowly crumbled IMO.
 
#65
#65
I didn't want to start a new thread for this but I find it pretty funny that Lane boasts about putting together one of the best staff's in the country and he goes out and gets a QB coach from Arkansas State. This has to be a pretty big slap in the face for Reaves, I think it is safe to say that Reaves was better than Clay Helton.
 
#66
#66
Has anybody heard anything on USC's hearings?

I just read on a sports blog that the first 2 days of hearings were focused soley on the football team.

The popular subject of course being Reggie Bush and the money him and his family supposedly received from a couple of "would-be" agents. I don't recall reading about the proof on this but the bloggers say there seems to be enough that has been unconvered.

Can anyone add to info on the proof etc., etc.?
 
#68
#68
This isn't USC this is BIG ORANGE COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody cares about X or his Trojans.
 
#71
#71
Okay, I'll admit it. I am a lawyer. In fact, Gould School of Law 2004. Now that I've read the ESPN and SI reports on the standards the NCAA is expected to apply, I am afraid that I am cannot get away from the feeling that USC really has an uphill battle. Okay, let's take Carroll at his word. He did not know about Bush. And none of the rest of the coaching staff either. But then how can the staff, once they knew they were under the microscope, have not made inquiries of McKnight when he was driving a car that was probably more car than he should have been able to afford. They were on notice at that point. Under investigation. Two scandals. And some simple observations and follow-up questions by an LA Times reporter at practice for all to see! I mean get real. I am afraid Garrett was asleep at the wheel.

My prediction is that the NCAA has no choice but to split the baby. That USC is forced to forfeit all of its wins over a number of years. That USC is forced to sacrifice a certain number of scholarships in football and more significantly in basketball. But that for the most part the machine is left intact.

From a dollars and cents perspective, the NCAA cannot simply replace USC with another program. It's in a huge market without a NFL franchise. The revenues and SYMBOLIC VALUE to the PAC10 and the NCAA are tremendous. UCLA might step up but it could never be counted on to fill the void.
NCAA Infraction Hearing ? Day 1 - TrojanWire
 
#72
#72
I don't think anything will be announced for a few months is what I heard. The whole thing will be pretty much tight-lipped until the NCAA announces it's findings. I don't think you will know anything before maybe April or May at the earliest.
 
#73
#73
guys you are also forgetting something. USC got put on probation right before carrol took over. so if the reggie bush thing comes out to be a seriouse violation. that will b the second within 5 years and that means they get the repeat affender punishment. im not sure what that is if someone wants to look it up but it isint good.

may the hand of justice move swiftly apon that reitched institution, and the fowl ****tstains that run it.
 
#75
#75
thaclaw said:
Okay, I'll admit it. I am a lawyer. In fact, Gould School of Law 2004. Now that I've read the ESPN and SI reports on the standards the NCAA is expected to apply, I am afraid that I am cannot get away from the feeling that USC really has an uphill battle. Okay, let's take Carroll at his word. He did not know about Bush. And none of the rest of the coaching staff either. But then how can the staff, once they knew they were under the microscope, have not made inquiries of McKnight when he was driving a car that was probably more car than he should have been able to afford. They were on notice at that point. Under investigation. Two scandals. And some simple observations and follow-up questions by an LA Times reporter at practice for all to see! I mean get real. I am afraid Garrett was asleep at the wheel.

My prediction is that the NCAA has no choice but to split the baby. That USC is forced to forfeit all of its wins over a number of years. That USC is forced to sacrifice a certain number of scholarships in football and more significantly in basketball. But that for the most part the machine is left intact.

From a dollars and cents perspective, the NCAA cannot simply replace USC with another program. It's in a huge market without a NFL franchise. The revenues and SYMBOLIC VALUE to the PAC10 and the NCAA are tremendous. UCLA might step up but it could never be counted on to fill the void.
NCAA Infraction Hearing ? Day 1 - TrojanWire
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I have to agree with this post. There are serious infractions in play here with both the basketball team and football team. But the NCAA's greed for money, especially in a football market dominated by non-NFL USC and to a lesser extent UCLA, will prevail here. Worst case scenario is that USC will have to forfeit wins when Bush played, and might lose a few scholarships. They will NOT be losing any bowl games or tv games. Unfortunately they will come out of this relatively unscathed and I hate that. The NCAA, in its modern day approach to punishing schools that have skirted or outright violated the rules, have let their own money making agenda dominate how they rule in each case. They no longer care about upholding the rules they themselves draft, they only look to how it might hurt their pocket book.
 
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