The Ground Zero mosque is a bad idea and shouldn't be permitted.

#51
#51
lumberjack4 said:
Missed the 1942 part. I was speaking in today's terms. In 1942 we were at war with Japan. Last time I checked we have not declared war on Islam or every mosque in this country would be shut down.
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That's where you and many others on both sides keep missing it.

I agree with you if this is a religious center then they have as much right to be there as anywhere else even if they're celebrating a Muslim victory over the West. As repulsive and stupid as that expression would be, we have to protect that right or else we provide the rationale for losing our own.

HOWEVER, if this is political in nature then we very much ARE at odds with Islam in that respect.

The basic problem is this: do we treat Islam as a religion or a political ideology/group? Their honest answer would be that they are both. Until we define the problem correctly, we cannot come to a solution.

Our founders fought and died in part to throw off a state established church... That is basically what fundamental Islamic doctrine says must spread across the globe, a theocracy.

This issue isn't as cut and dried as you seem to think.
 
#53
#53
Roughneck said:
Calling it a mosque is like calling the YMCA a church.
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Not even close. As far as I know, the YMCA nor the church that established it ever called for biblical law to become the law of the land.

This Imam has said on several occasions he expects US law and officials to be "sharia compliant".
edit: It's also not at ground zero which for some reason no one wants to talk about.
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Close enough for landing gear to have damaged the building.
 
#54
#54
Roughneck said:
Calling it a mosque is like calling the YMCA a church. This is essentially the same thing. Why can't you understand this? What are you say afraid of?
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Really? Are you serious? I've never seen a YMCA have a sanctuary and church services going on inside in full setup before. Again, the project head himself said there is a mosque onsite in the plan.

Here's something in simpler terms for you. A mall has a Sears in it. It is a part of the mall as a whole but it is a separate entity. The Sears store is there. According to your logic, just because the Sears is in the mall the Sears itself does not exist and we should not call it a Sears. It should be the mall name.

And I'm not "say" afraid of anything? Why is it liberals have to use fear for everything? Some obsession with the word. They cannot explain anything so just blame it all on fear.
 
#55
#55
CSpindizzy said:
I never said it was "just a mosque" first of all. And how does a "mosque and then some" disprove anything? Third question, who said they had a fear of Islam? Wow. Talk about kneejerk impulsive reaction here.
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Unbunch your panties, Dr. Zeus. It was a generalized response. Look at the title of the freaking thread. People keep referring to this as a mosque, but it's not. It would be totally strange for a Muslim Center to NOT have a mosque in it. It's just referred to as such because most of America seems to think that if Muslims are praying in a building, the whole damn thing must be a mosque.

I liked the kitchen/house reference earlier. It totally nailed the point I'm trying to make.

This whole hullabaloo being made over the center being built is a kneejerk reaction.

Mosques (temples specifically for praying, not for museums or history/information centers) were built upon fallen enemies as a sign of conquest, which many folks on this board/across the country are swearing is the reason this building is being constructed.

You know, they have chapels in a lot of hospitals. How would people feel if a Mosque wing was added to any given hospital in Fort Sanders?

To answer your third inquiry... you cannot be serious. Go back to the Politics section of this board and look at half the thread titles. This country fears Islam to a disheartening degree. It's ridiculous to think otherwise. Why else are so many people up in arms about ANYTHING Islam integrating itself into American society? We're scared sh*tless of it, that's why.
 
#56
#56
sjt18 said:
That's where you and many others on both sides keep missing it.

I agree with you if this is a religious center then they have as much right to be there as anywhere else even if they're celebrating a Muslim victory over the West. As repulsive and stupid as that expression would be, we have to protect that right or else we provide the rationale for losing our own.

HOWEVER, if this is political in nature then we very much ARE at odds with Islam in that respect.

The basic problem is this: do we treat Islam as a religion or a political ideology/group? Their honest answer would be that they are both. Until we define the problem correctly, we cannot come to a solution.

Our founders fought and died in part to throw off a state established church... That is basically what fundamental Islamic doctrine says must spread across the globe, a theocracy.

This issue isn't as cut and dried as you seem to think.
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Prove it's a national security threat and this mosque is funding terrorism or whatever and the game changes. All we have now is people saying well we know this and that, but can't prove anything. Back up these claims with hard evidence and not theories and then I'm with you.
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#58
#58
CSpindizzy said:
Last I checked, a mosque is a mosque. If there is a mosque there, there is a mosque there. Follow the logic? Are you seriously that inept? I'm more inclined to go with the actual mosque portion being the bigger issue than the supposedly feel good warm and fuzzy tolerance center that clearly defeated its purpose before even getting off the ground.
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He's not inept for disagreeing with, Dr. Zeus. People CAN have different perspectives without being "left" or "inept."
 
#60
#60
DinkinFlicka said:
Unbunch your panties, Dr. Zeus. It was a generalized response. Look at the title of the freaking thread. People keep referring to this as a mosque, but it's not. It would be totally strange for a Muslim Center to NOT have a mosque in it. It's just referred to as such because most of America seems to think that if Muslims are praying in a building, the whole damn thing must be a mosque.

I liked the kitchen/house reference earlier. It totally nailed the point I'm trying to make.

This whole hullabaloo being made over the center being built is a kneejerk reaction.

Mosques (temples specifically for praying, not for museums or history/information centers) were built upon fallen enemies as a sign of conquest, which many folks on this board/across the country are swearing is the reason this building is being constructed.

You know, they have chapels in a lot of hospitals. How would people feel if a Mosque wing was added to any given hospital in Fort Sanders?

To answer your third inquiry... you cannot be serious. Go back to the Politics section of this board and look at half the thread titles. This country fears Islam to a disheartening degree. It's ridiculous to think otherwise. Why else are so many people up in arms about ANYTHING Islam integrating itself into American society? We're scared sh*tless of it, that's why.
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So a community center working on understanding has to have a mosque in it? Is that a Muslim requirement?

Kitchen/house comparison already debunked. No one is saying the whole thing is a mosque. But I'm willing to bet that the mosque portion is where most people have the problem here. If anything most people supporting this even deny there is a mosque even in the plans. Show them the link to the project and where it even points out the mosque and those shut up and disappear OR find something new to cry about.

As for a chapel in a hospital, it is interfaith. I've seen other faiths use hospital chapels before. No one ever made a big deal about it either. If you're talking about a special wing, then I'd say there was an issue.

I think it's funny how a dislike for something means fear. There is a serious disconnect with the two. Oh if you're opposed to THIS, you MUST fear it. That has to be about the stupidest logic I've heard. If there was a fear of Muslims, you'd see something equivalent of what Blacks in this country experienced for centuries. Somehow a loud protest over a building in NYC translates to some desire to either wipe out or ship out Muslims in America? Give me a break.
 
#61
#61
lumberjack4 said:
You're grasping at straws here. Ground Zero is the WTC.
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Yes. The physical and psychological damage is limited solely to the physical locations of towers 1 and 2. My bad. Grasping at straws? Seriously? This building suffered damage. I cannot remember who but another poster put the map of areas damaged.
 
#62
#62
I remember the map, but saying since some landing gear made a hole in the roof somehow disqualifies this from being elgible for a mosque location is stupid.
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#63
#63
CSpindizzy said:
So a community center working on understanding has to have a mosque in it? Is that a Muslim requirement?

Kitchen/house comparison already debunked. No one is saying the whole thing is a mosque. But I'm willing to bet that the mosque portion is where most people have the problem here. If anything most people supporting this even deny there is a mosque even in the plans. Show them the link to the project and where it even points out the mosque and those shut up and disappear OR find something new to cry about.

As for a chapel in a hospital, it is interfaith. I've seen other faiths use hospital chapels before. No one ever made a big deal about it either. If you're talking about a special wing, then I'd say there was an issue.

I think it's funny how a dislike for something means fear. There is a serious disconnect with the two. Oh if you're opposed to THIS, you MUST fear it. That has to be about the stupidest logic I've heard. If there was a fear of Muslims, you'd see something equivalent of what Blacks in this country experienced for centuries. Somehow a loud protest over a building in NYC translates to some desire to either wipe out or ship out Muslims in America? Give me a break.
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Muslims take their prayer more seriously than most religions. I pretty much is a requirement. I'm sorry that's so difficult to understand, considering one of the Pillars of Islam is to pray 5 times a day... which very few religion do.

It's not debunked because you say it is. There ARE tons of people who don't realize that it's a community center. Don't be foolish... it's not as though I am associating you with that crowd simply for disagreeing with its being built. Just as I am willing to admit there's a mosque in it while still supporting it, other folks can admit that's not just a mosque and still disagree with it. It's not that hard.

Hard to say it's interfaith when there's a cross and pews lined up (only a handful of religions use pews, little known fact). C'mon... we're in East Tennessee... the buckle of the Bible Belt.

The Christian/Islam relationship is built from a mutual fear. Arguing otherwise is ludicrous. Not everyone against this community center being built wants Islam wiped off America, but a good chunk of them do.

There IS such thing as a middle ground. We can keep playing this game of ping pong with ideological extremes, but it won't bear any logical fruit.
 
#65
#65
Roughneck said:
Calling it a mosque is like calling the YMCA a church. This is essentially the same thing. Why can't you understand this? What are you say afraid of?

edit: It's also not at ground zero which for some reason no one wants to talk about.
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No one is afraid of anything!

It is ground zero when the landing gear of one of the crashed flights goes through two stories of the building.

A building that should be on the historic register and unavailable for redevelopment.

BTW, they gained approval under false principles for one thing, of the the two buildings they claimed to own, they only owned one, the other was under lease.

What's your stake in the matter??
 
#66
#66
lumberjack4 said:
I remember the map, but saying since some landing gear made a hole in the roof somehow disqualifies this from being elgible for a mosque location is stupid.
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Do you like picking a single aspect of an argument out and basing the opposition solely around that? It's amazing how the debate gets so skewed. And to somehow say well if it is not actually where the towers physically were, well those victims and families should just get over it.
 
#67
#67
DinkinFlicka said:
Muslims take their prayer more seriously than most religions. I pretty much is a requirement. I'm sorry that's so difficult to understand, considering one of the Pillars of Islam is to pray 5 times a day... which very few religion do.

It's not debunked because you say it is. There ARE tons of people who don't realize that it's a community center. Don't be foolish... it's not as though I am associating you with that crowd simply for disagreeing with its being built. Just as I am willing to admit there's a mosque in it while still supporting it, other folks can admit that's not just a mosque and still disagree with it. It's not that hard.

Hard to say it's interfaith when there's a cross and pews lined up (only a handful of religions use pews, little known fact). C'mon... we're in East Tennessee... the buckle of the Bible Belt.

The Christian/Islam relationship is built from a mutual fear. Arguing otherwise is ludicrous. Not everyone against this community center being built wants Islam wiped off America, but a good chunk of them do.

There IS such thing as a middle ground. We can keep playing this game of ping pong with ideological extremes, but it won't bear any logical fruit.
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I didn't ask about how serious they took their faith. Tell me where a Muslim basketball court is required to have a mosque in the Quran. Tell me where something to breach intollerance between other faiths is required to have a mosque.

So just because a cross and pews are there, no other faiths can use it? I guess Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc. I've seen use a chapel before didn't get that memo. Add to the fact what you see in East Tennessee may not be the same as other areas of the country either.
 
#68
#68
CSpindizzy said:
I didn't ask about how serious they took their faith. Tell me where a Muslim basketball court is required to have a mosque in the Quran. Tell me where something to breach intollerance between other faiths is required to have a mosque.

So just because a cross and pews are there, no other faiths can use it? I guess Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc. I've seen use a chapel before didn't get that memo. Add to the fact what you see in East Tennessee may not be the same as other areas of the country either.
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Actually, the courts for the MBL in SoCal are right next to mosques, but hey... that's irrelevant.

I never said no other faiths could use, I merely stated which faith the chapels (hello, it's called a chapel) are most conducive to. I obviously know that East Tennessee isn't like the rest of the country, hence the Bible Belt reference.

Of all points I brought up, why did you take the most inane ones and respond to them?
 
#69
#69
CSpindizzy said:
Do you like picking a single aspect of an argument out and basing the opposition solely around that? It's amazing how the debate gets so skewed. And to somehow say well if it is not actually where the towers physically were, well those victims and families should just get over it.
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I'm just refuting arguments one at a time. I've given the circumstances needed to change my mind. As if yet it has not happened.
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#70
#70
The reason its not exactly at ground zero may just because they knew they couldn't put it there! Or couldn't get a permit.
 
#73
#73
CSpindizzy said:
Yes. The physical and psychological damage is limited solely to the physical locations of towers 1 and 2. My bad. Grasping at straws? Seriously? This building suffered damage. I cannot remember who but another poster put the map of areas damaged.
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Two 100+ story buildings collapsed, there's going to be collateral damage. If my neighbors tree falls on my does that mean my house was in his yard?
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#74
#74
#75
#75
lumberjack4 said:
Not really a fan of snakes.
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Then I don't see why you defend the pit of vipers behind the ground zero victory mosque.

Who is Ground Zero mosque developer El-Gamal?

Note the prominent position in the Muslim Brotherhood of Jamal Barzinji, who allegedly is a partner in the Cordoba Initiative, the organization behind Rauf and the Ground Zero mosque. On its website, Barzinji's organization the International Institute of Islamic Thought lauds Imam Rauf's Sharia Index Project, of which critics claim the Ground Zero mosque is clearly an outreach, based on remarks in Rauf's book, titled in Malaysia, A Call to Prayer from the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawa in the Heart of America Post-9/11. Moreover, Northeast Intelligence Network reports that Rauf's wife, Daisy Khan, is the niece of Faroque A. Khan, "a trustee at the Muslim Brotherhood's Islamic Society of North America (ISNA)."

This contention of a Muslim Brotherhood connection to the Cordoba Initiative and the Ground Zero mosque is given further weight with the statements of a former FBI special agent, who states that every major Islamic organization in the U.S. is MB-controlled:
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Rauf's father was big in the Muslim Brotherhood also.



lumberjack4 said:
Prove it's a national security threat and this mosque is funding terrorism or whatever and the game changes. All we have now is people saying well we know this and that, but can't prove anything. Back up these claims with hard evidence and not theories and then I'm with you.
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Why would it have to be a national security threat, why not just a local security threat??

In another post I demostrated that the muslim brotherhood has been deemed a national security threat in nations all over the middle east.

Do you think Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Israel and others don't know why???

Just because most Americans are as ignorant as a box of rocks on the topic doesn't mean everyone is.

Just because the US government and leading dhimmi politicians had rather support Rauf and his ilk and investigate people who oppose them, doesn't mean they should get a free pass.




DinkinFlicka said:
Welcome to VN political boards... where East Tennessee runs wild.
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I don't live in east Tennessee.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

You're just resorting to a cheap shot.

BTW, the vast majority of the people all across America oppose the Ground Zero Victory mosque.
 
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