The Initial '08-'09 Hoops Trap 10.

#176
#176
emainvol said:
Reading back over his post, you are right, Blamie is correct. However, my definition is not incorrect, the secondary break is always an option in transition for the Tar Heels. Also, perhaps you should rethink this statement
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I don't need to rethink my statement. With Lawson running the point, Carolina often scores in under three or four seconds off of made baskets. Those aren't secondary breaks. They're fast breaks. Also, with Lawson at the point, the secondary break is not only an option, it is run virtually every time the fast break isn't available. If nothing opens up in the secondary break, then they run their offense.
 
#177
#177
Vol423 said:
I don't need to rethink my statement. With Lawson running the point, Carolina often scores in under three or four seconds off of made baskets. Those aren't secondary breaks. They're fast breaks.
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I am talking about the MADE baskets part, you are flat out wrong.
 
#178
#178
Good, now that you have said two entirely different things in this thread, I will quit arguing with you.
 
#179
#179
emainvol said:
I am talking about the MADE baskets part, you are flat out wrong.
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No I'm not. Carolina OFTEN gains a numerical advantage and runs FAST BREAKS (not secondary breaks) off of MADE BASKETS. If you had actually bothered to watch any of their games, you would realize that.
 
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#180
#180
Vol423 said:
No I'm not. Carolina OFTEN gains a numerical advantage and runs FAST BREAKS (not secondary breaks) off of MADE BASKETS.
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whatever man, your statement missed an integral part, what do they do when the fast break does not work? next time say what you mean instead of just trying to be argumentative.
 
#181
#181
Chemvol said:
Actually, UNC is one of the teams I root for when I'm not rooting for the Vols. But I'm not a UNC homer...any more than I am a UT homer. I'll pass on the Kool-Aid, thank you.



And they have also not demonstrated that they have what it takes to win it all. Yes, they'll be hyped to the max b/c of who they have coming back. A lot of heavily promoted UNC teams have not lived up to their hype, and...at this moment...I'm doubting that this team will either.
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I understand where you are coming from...but my reasoning for declaring them hands down favorites is based almost as much on what everyone else is lacking as it is the overwhelming talent, depth, and experience they will have...

You say they haven't shown that they have what it takes to win it all...well then my question is...who has?

Other than Kansas and Florida (who have practically nothing left from their championship teams) can anyone say they have it and then back that up with proof...

I get the feeling that so many people are down on UNC because of this past Final Four...but honestly....I think most of us have watched enough sports to know that sometimes one team is flat (granted...how you come out that flat for a Final Four game is completely beyond me) and the other team is on fire...

Carolina ran into a buzzsaw in Kansas and then didn't have enough to finish the comeback once the initial wave was over...keep in mind they were down 28 at one point and brought it back to four....which means they outscored the eventual national champions by almost as much as they were outscored to start that game....If the initial run by Kansas was impressive then you have to admit the response by UNC almost matched it...

My point is...don't let the egg UNC laid at the start of the Kansas game cloud your minds...when you look at what UNC has AND what everyone else doesn't...its pretty clear they are the overwhleming favorites this year
 
#182
#182
Vol423 said:
No I'm not. Carolina OFTEN gains a numerical advantage and runs FAST BREAKS (not secondary breaks) off of MADE BASKETS. If you had actually bothered to watch any of their games, you would realize that.
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If its done early in the morning is it a Break fast?
 
#184
#184
emainvol said:
Reading back over his post, you are right, Blamie is correct. However, my definition is not incorrect, the secondary break is always an option in transition for the Tar Heels. Also, perhaps you should rethink this statement
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I appreciate the props...but...with all due respect...how do you run the secondary break without attempting the primary first...

If the secondary break was your primary option...wouldn't that make it the primary break...:)

I'm just messin' with ya Main...

But seriously...UNC offensive philosophy is this...run the primary break, if it doesn't work run a set play while the opposing team is still confused(i.e.secondary break), if that fails back it out and run the halfcourt offense...

I don't know what the percentages are off the top of my head...but I would be willing to bet with as many points as UNC averages per game(close to 90 I think) that a pretty decent chunk of that total comes from the primary break...

And that is what separates Williams from Smith and makes him his own coach with his own distinct style as opposed to just a Smith clone
 
#185
#185
blamie said:
I appreciate the props...but...with all due respect...how do you run the secondary break without attempting the primary first...

If the secondary break was your primary option...wouldn't that make it the primary break...:)

I'm just messin' with ya Main...

But seriously...UNC offensive philosophy is this...run the primary break, if it doesn't work run a set play while the opposing team is still confused(i.e.secondary break), if that fails back it out and run the halfcourt offense...

I don't know what the percentages are off the top of my head...but I would be willing to bet with as many points as UNC averages per game(close to 90 I think) that a pretty decent chunk of that total comes from the primary break...

And that is what separates Williams from Smith and makes him his own coach with his own distinct style as opposed to just a Smith clone
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Yeah, I looked back over some of my own posts and that is how I came off. It wasn't intentional. Regardless, my whole point was that it was a primary part of the offense, I am just sick and wasn't thinking straight when I read your post.

You are right, a decent chunk does come from the primary, but I would venture to say that the secondary probably produces as much if not more. By design, it should.
 
#186
#186
emainvol said:
Yeah, I looked back over some of my own posts and that is how I came off. It wasn't intentional. Regardless, my whole point was that it was a primary part of the offense, I am just sick and wasn't thinking straight when I read your post.

You are right, a decent chunk does come from the primary, but I would venture to say that the secondary probably produces as much if not more. By design, it should.
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Yeah...I would agree and wouldn't be surprised if more points come from the secondary...but I would also say that it all starts with the primary in Williams system...

I've watched some practices of theirs and he is constantly drilling them to push the ball up the court....but pretty much anytime he stops a transition possesion to explain something to his players it's the secondary break he is coaching them on

Oh and...BTW....just to clear things up a little...I have just as strong ties to UNC through my fathers side of the family as I do to UT through my mothers side....that's why I know a decent amount about their basketball team and why I'm so defensive about them...

I know that poses a bit of a moral quandry...but hey...cheering for both is what I've learned since I was born...

Besides..since I'm a UT grad...if a gun was held to my head and I was told I could chose only one I would pick UT without hesitating
 
#188
#188
Vol423 said:
What's the blue team, Hat, and how was it used?
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Another of El Deano's idiotic ""innovations." Mass substitution. He finally figured out it as better to have guys like Worthy, Perkins, Jordan, and Wallace on the court for more minutes and moved away from that lunacy.
 
#189
#189
volinbham said:
Hat,

Any indication that Mike Anderson is going to get things going at Mizzou this year?
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Keaton Grant's transfer sure doesn't help. They'll win more games because the Big XII is going to be down, but they've still got a ways to go. Quinn Snyder left that program in absolute shambles.
 
#190
#190
blamie said:
Yeah...I would agree and wouldn't be surprised if more points come from the secondary...but I would also say that it all starts with the primary in Williams system...

I've watched some practices of theirs and he is constantly drilling them to push the ball up the court....but pretty much anytime he stops a transition possesion to explain something to his players it's the secondary break he is coaching them on

Oh and...BTW....just to clear things up a little...I have just as strong ties to UNC through my fathers side of the family as I do to UT through my mothers side....that's why I know a decent amount about their basketball team and why I'm so defensive about them...

I know that poses a bit of a moral quandry...but hey...cheering for both is what I've learned since I was born...

Besides..since I'm a UT grad...if a gun was held to my head and I was told I could chose only one I would pick UT without hesitating
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I actually don't have a huge problem with UNC basketball, although I consider myself a bit of a Wake Forest backer for whatever reason, I guess because I was following them in the postseason through a lot of years that Tennessee wasn't there. I was a fan of Duncan and Childress back in the day as well.
 
#191
#191
blamie said:
Oh and...BTW....just to clear things up a little...I have just as strong ties to UNC through my fathers side of the family as I do to UT through my mothers side....that's why I know a decent amount about their basketball team and why I'm so defensive about them...
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On paper, UNC has probably the best resume out there. I'm not really denying that. But I have a healthy skepticism about whether that hype will translate into any hardware come April, and I'm basing that on the mental toughness to pull out games that deep in the tourney that this particular group of guys seems to lack. It's not just this year vs Kansas in the FF but last year's collapse against G'town as well.

I'm all for UNC winning a title...as long as they don't beat us in doing it. :) But I'm going to have to see something more than what I've seen from this particular group so far before I consider them capable of doing any more than what they've already done.

As far as who I would consider instead, I think hat's original list has some distinct possibilities. I usually reserve my thoughts on contenders until I see them play some games so I can see how things like academics, injuries, and team chemistry start playing out.

I think the difference between us is that I'm a little more tempered in my optimism than most. :hi:
 
#192
#192
Chemvol said:
On paper, UNC has probably the best resume out there. I'm not really denying that. But I have a healthy skepticism about whether that hype will translate into any hardware come April, and I'm basing that on the mental toughness to pull out games that deep in the tourney that this particular group of guys seems to lack. It's not just this year vs Kansas in the FF but last year's collapse against G'town as well.
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UNC wasn't expected to make it nearly as far as they did in the NCAA tournament in 2007. They were playing with true freshmen at both point guard and shooting guard. Believe me, I was plenty mad when UNC collapsed going down the stretch against Georgetown, but that's what happens when you have two freshmen guards leading your team in the NCAA tournament against a very talented opponent.
 
#193
#193
hatvol96 said:
Another of El Deano's idiotic ""innovations." Mass substitution. He finally figured out it as better to have guys like Worthy, Perkins, Jordan, and Wallace on the court for more minutes and moved away from that lunacy.
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I'll give you partial credit, Hat. You have the basic concept, but Dean Smith never abandoned use of the blue team. He used it until he retired.
 
#195
#195
Vol423 said:
UNC wasn't expected to make it nearly as far as they did in the NCAA tournament in 2007. They were playing with true freshmen at both point guard and shooting guard. Believe me, I was plenty mad when UNC collapsed going down the stretch against Georgetown, but that's what happens when you have two freshmen guards leading your team in the NCAA tournament against a very talented opponent.
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collapses happen also when you play no defense. I haven't heard any of you Roy concubines talk about the pathetic D this squad plays. They are going to be the beneficiary of a weak ACC again, but they still have the choker at the helm and lack of D bites everyone eventually in a 6 game run. It will bite UNC again unless they figure it out and get some D focus, because scoring is fickle, even for the best teams.
 
#196
#196
BigPapaVol said:
collapses happen also when you play no defense. I haven't heard any of you Roy concubines talk about the pathetic D this squad plays. They are going to be the beneficiary of a weak ACC again, but they still have the choker at the helm and lack of D bites everyone eventually in a 6 game run. It will bite UNC again unless they figure it out and get some D focus, because scoring is fickle, even for the best teams.
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I think this is a problem Duke and UNC have in common. A run through their conference doesn't toughen them up like it used to.
 
#197
#197
Vol423 said:
I'll give you partial credit, Hat. You have the basic concept, but Dean Smith never abandoned use of the blue team. He used it until he retired.
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Sure he did. Show me all the minutes the bench played in the '82 title game, the '93 title game, and the '95 regional final. That'll tell you how much he still believed in his idiotic invention.
 
#199
#199
hatvol96 said:
Sure he did. Show me all the minutes the bench played in the '82 title game, the '93 title game, and the '95 regional final. That'll tell you how much he still believed in his idiotic invention.
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You're wrong, Hat. The blue team was used until Dean Smith retired. I, too, thought it was stupid, but that doesn't change the fact that Dean Smith used it.
 
#200
#200
Vol423 said:
You're wrong, Hat. The blue team was used until Dean Smith retired. I, too, thought it was stupid, but that doesn't change the fact that Dean Smith used it.
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you're being disengenuous here and you know it. He used it until it mattered and then he didn't. With the lack of parity that existed during the vast majority of his tenure, very few of his coaching decisions mattered. In big games, they did matter and he lost way more than he should have. He moved away from his blue team every time it mattered later in his career, because even he decided it was silly.
 
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