The Initial '08-'09 Hoops Trap 10.

#152
#152
blamie said:
Yeah...I didn't make that clear....I was talking about their styles...

Smith was a halfcourt, run out the shot clock, feed it to the post kind of coach...

Williams is a run and gun guy whose philosophy is centered around the point guard...

Smith was defintely his mentor but they have differant approaches to the game...

And the person who originally brought up the early to mid 90's UNC teams wasn't even going into that much detail....he was quoting something that happened 15 years ago as if it would have any effect on this year...

And as far as choking is concerned....how bad did Williams choke in 05? Or better yet...how bad did he choke as a coach in 06 when he was replacing his top 7 players from that championship team?
Click to expand...
How bad did he choke at Kansas in for the vast majority of the '90s? Yeah, losing to UTEP was a great feat. Being the hands down favorite and getting run in '97 was good too. The collapse in the '96 regional was also impressive. Remind me again, how many times has Williams failed to reach the Final Four as a #1 or #2 seed?
 
#153
#153
emainvol said:
They both run the secondary break. Williams tweaked it, runs it a little faster, and tends to go to the scramble defense a bit earlier in the game. The differences are few.
Click to expand...

Williams philosophy is to run every chance you get...

Smith was famous...if not notorious...for slowing things down...

Obviously, Williams took alot from Smith and the similarities(sp) are still there...

But over the years Williams has changed his approach enough to distinguish himself as his own coach and not just some clone of Smith...

And besides...I still don't get how UNC getting beat in the 2nd round in 94' will have any effect on their success this year
 
#155
#155
blamie said:
You mean the Final Four team that also knocked out the team nobody expected to lose that year (Uconn)
Click to expand...

05-06 is not a good example, sorry. Losing to an 11 seed in the second round as a 3 is a prime example of choking.
 
#156
#156
hatvol96 said:
How bad did he choke at Kansas in for the vast majority of the '90s? Yeah, losing to UTEP was a great feat. Being the hands down favorite and getting run in '97 was good too. The collapse in the '96 regional was also impressive. Remind me again, how many times has Williams failed to reach the Final Four as a #1 or #2 seed?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't know... I honestly didn't even care about what he did until he got to UNC...where he's made it to the Final Four 2 out of 3 times as a #1 seed
 
#157
#157
emainvol said:
05-06 is not a good example, sorry. Losing to an 11 seed in the second round as a 3 is a prime example of choking.
Click to expand...

The same 11 seed that made it all the way to the Final Four by also beating the best team in the country...

All of this while starting 3 freshman and replacing your top 7 scorers from the year before....

Yeah that's a horrible display of coaching...nothing but a pure choke job by Williams
 
#158
#158
blamie said:
The same 11 seed that made it all the way to the Final Four by also beating the best team in the country...

All of this while starting 3 freshman and replacing your top 7 scorers from the year before....

Yeah that's a horrible display of coaching...nothing but a pure choke job by Williams
Click to expand...

I don't care if George Mason went on to be crowned the eternal oligarchy of college basketball, UNC still choked.
 
#159
#159
emainvol said:
I don't care if George Mason went on to be crowned the eternal oligarchy of college basketball, UNC still choked.
Click to expand...

The point is...UNC wasn't even expected to make the tournament that year...

Seriously...they were picked to finish 7th in the ACC that year...

That derserves some credit....

It's the equivalent of Fulmer leading us to a New Years Eve/Day bowl after losing 87.5% of his starters from the year before
 
#160
#160
blamie said:
The point is...UNC wasn't even expected to make the tournament that year...

Seriously...they were picked to finish 7th in the ACC that year...

That derserves some credit....

It's the equivalent of Fulmer leading us to a New Years Eve/Day bowl after losing 87.5% of his starters from the year before
Click to expand...

Yes, and then losing to Ball State or some other mid major. Which would be choking. I suppose if Georgia had lost to Hawaii, that would have been fine since Hawaii was undefeated and Georgia wasn't supposed to finish number two in the country anyway?
 
#161
#161
hatvol96 said:
Yeah, very different. In fact, do they even know each other? It's not like Smith was his mentor and both have a history of falling victim to upsets as high seeds in the NCAA Tournament. You're right, nothing in common at all.
Click to expand...

Hat,

Either you're just trying to pick an argument, or you are nowhere near as knowledgeable about basketball as you pretend to be. Yes. Roy Williams was an assistant coach under Dean Smith for years. However, their coaching styles are very, very different. Dean Smith ran a slow, controlled offense and often employed the four corners. Roy Williams runs the most up-tempo, fast-breaking attacking offense in the nation. Dean Smith utilized the blue team. Roy Williams doesn't. Many of their offensive sets and plays are the same, but they are employed with a completely different mentality, and the two coaches recruit players with far different skills sets.
 
#162
#162
blamie said:
Yeah...I didn't make that clear....I was talking about their styles...

Smith was a halfcourt, run out the shot clock, feed it to the post kind of coach...

Williams is a run and gun guy whose philosophy is centered around the point guard...

Smith was defintely his mentor but they have differant approaches to the game...

And the person who originally brought up the early to mid 90's UNC teams wasn't even going into that much detail....he was quoting something that happened 15 years ago as if it would have any effect on this year...

And as far as choking is concerned....how bad did Williams choke in 05? Or better yet...how bad did he choke as a coach in 06 when he was replacing his top 7 players from that championship team?

And before anyone says he won in 05 with Daugherty's players....how was Daugherty doing with those players?
Click to expand...

Agreed on all counts.
 
#163
#163
Vol423 said:
Hat,

Either you're just trying to pick an argument, or you are nowhere near as knowledgeable about basketball as you pretend to be. Yes. Roy Williams was an assistant coach under Dean Smith for years. However, their coaching styles are very, very different. Dean Smith ran a slow, controlled offense and often employed the four corners. Roy Williams runs the most up-tempo, fast-breaking attacking offense in the nation. Dean Smith utilized the blue team. Roy Williams doesn't. Many of their offensive sets and plays are the same, but they are employed with a completely different mentality, and the two coaches recruit players with far different skills sets.
Click to expand...

Whoa!!! Thank you!!!:hi:

I didn't think anyone on here was going to take the same point of view as me...

And yes...I don't believe for a second Hat didn't realize the point you just made...which would mean he is stirring the pot once again
 
#164
#164
emainvol said:
They both run the secondary break. Williams tweaked it, runs it a little faster, and tends to go to the scramble defense a bit earlier in the game. The differences are few.
Click to expand...

The secondary break? :eek:lol: Have you even seen a Carolina game? They fast break off of MADE baskets, often scoring in approximately three or four seconds from the time a basket is made against them.
 
#165
#165
Vol423 said:
Hat,

Either you're just trying to pick an argument, or you are nowhere near as knowledgeable about basketball as you pretend to be. Yes. Roy Williams was an assistant coach under Dean Smith for years. However, their coaching styles are very, very different. Dean Smith ran a slow, controlled offense and often employed the four corners. Roy Williams runs the most up-tempo, fast-breaking attacking offense in the nation. Dean Smith utilized the blue team. Roy Williams doesn't. Many of their offensive sets and plays are the same, but they are employed with a completely different mentality, and the two coaches recruit players with far different skills sets.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I remember all the times the McGinnis/Wallace/Stackhouse squad lined up in the Four Corners. It's amazing how they were able to do so with the shot clock. That Dean Smith was crafty.
 
#166
#166
hatvol96 said:
Yeah, I remember all the times the McGinnis/Wallace/Stackhouse squad lined up in the Four Corners. It's amazing how they were able to do so with the shot clock. That Dean Smith was crafty.
Click to expand...

I've got a newsflash for you, Hat. Dean Smith continued to use the four corners even after the invention of the shot clock.
 
#168
#168
Vol423 said:
The secondary break? :eek:lol: Have you even seen a Carolina game? They fast break off of MADE baskets, often scoring in approximately three or four seconds from the time a basket is made against them.
Click to expand...

Hat, care to share with this guy what the secondary break means to Carolina bball?
 
#169
#169
emainvol said:
Hat, care to share with this guy what the secondary break means to Carolina bball?
Click to expand...

I think we all realize that it's the equivalent of a set play that UNC runs if they don't score off the initial fast break...

It's effectiveness is based off the fact that the opposing team is generally scrambling back to defend the primary break and if executed properly the secondary break takes advantage of the "who's guarding who" that often occurs...

I'm pretty sure Carolina isn't the only team that utilizes the secondary break...and I'm pretty sure that Williams and Smith both using this method still doesn't make Williams a clone of Smith
 
#170
#170
blamie said:
I think we all realize that it's the equivalent of a set play that UNC runs if they don't score off the initial fast break...

It's effectiveness is based off the fact that the opposing team is generally scrambling back to defend the primary break and if executed properly the secondary break takes advantage of the "who's guarding who" that often occurs...
Click to expand...


umm... you are on the right track, it pretty much IS the transition
offense, in Carolina's case.
EDIT (I should go a bit more in depth): It is what Carolina runs off almost any change of possession

You are right about one thing, a lot of teams utilize it, Williams puts more emphasis on it than almost anyone.
 
Last edited:
#171
#171
blamie said:
Everyone and their mom will be picking UNC this year and I think its arrogance and possibly some personnal hatred of UNC that are causing any of you to say they aren't the hands down favorite...
Click to expand...

Actually, UNC is one of the teams I root for when I'm not rooting for the Vols. But I'm not a UNC homer...any more than I am a UT homer. I'll pass on the Kool-Aid, thank you.

UNC is far and away the most talented, deepest, and most experienced team in college basketball this coming year....there's not a team out there that's even close....
Click to expand...

And they have also not demonstrated that they have what it takes to win it all. Yes, they'll be hyped to the max b/c of who they have coming back. A lot of heavily promoted UNC teams have not lived up to their hype, and...at this moment...I'm doubting that this team will either.
 
#172
#172
I really should have said "put major emphasis on the secondary break" rather "run the secondary break"
 
#173
#173
Chemvol said:
Actually, UNC is one of the teams I root for when I'm not rooting for the Vols. But I'm not a UNC homer...any more than I am a UT homer. I'll pass on the Kool-Aid, thank you.



And they have also not demonstrated that they have what it takes to win it all. Yes, they'll be hyped to the max b/c of who they have coming back. A lot of heavily promoted UNC teams have not lived up to their hype, and...at this moment...I'm doubting that this team will either.
Click to expand...

Since UNC won the national championship just four seasons ago, I can only assume that you're referring to the current players that Carolina is putting on the floor. If that is your criteria, please tell me what college basketball team has "demonstrated that they have what it takes to win it all." Virtually the entire Kansas team from last year is gone, as are the players that participated in Florida's title runs in 2006 and 2007. I guess that you're predicting nobody wins the national championship next year.
 
Last edited:
#174
#174
emainvol said:
umm... you are on the right track, it pretty much IS the transition
offense, in Carolina's case.
EDIT (I should go a bit more in depth): It is what Carolina runs off almost any change of possession

You are right about one thing, a lot of teams utilize it, Williams puts more emphasis on it than almost anyone.
Click to expand...

No. You're wrong. The secondary break is employed when a team doesn't have a numerical advantage in players on a fast break. As such, they continue to attack the defense as it scrambles back to defend, and the offense will take advantage of mismatches and it will set screens, etc. in order to gain a scoring opportunity.

Blamie was correct in his definition of the secondary break. You, on the other hand, were incorrect in your definition. Also, Carolina runs both the fast break and the secondary break off of changes in possession (off of steals and off of both missed and made baskets).
 
Last edited:
#175
#175
Reading back over his post, you are right, Blamie is correct. However, my definition is not incorrect, the secondary break is always an option in transition for the Tar Heels. Also, perhaps you should rethink this statement

The secondary break? :eek:lol: Have you even seen a Carolina game? They fast break off of MADE baskets, often scoring in approximately three or four seconds from the time a basket is made against them.
Click to expand...
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top