The Liberal Argument for a Higher Minimum Wage

#51
#51
ruger1234 said:
One of the biggest problems low skilled workers face is competing with illegal migrants. If a person has a choice of working in a climate controlled environment or on a hot roof for equal pay, they'll probably choose climate controlled.

If not for the cheap illegal labor, building contractors would be forced to pay fair market wages decided by supply/demand economics.
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You seem to not understand "supply/demand". Illegal labor is far closer to being decided by supply and demand than a typical unskilled laborer. The black market is the only free market.
 
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#52
#52
Vol8188 said:
You seem to not understand "supply/demand". Illegal labor is far closer to being decided by supply and demand than a typical unskilled laborer. The black market is the only free market.
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The black market is riddled with rackets and protection threats.
 
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#53
#53
apevol said:
The black market is riddled with rackets and protection threats.
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Why does it have to be black market, why can't it be white market? Racist imo.

*my friend Franklin (a black man) always asked me that. He was hilarious. Rip my friend.
 
#54
#54
Vol8188 said:
You seem to not understand "supply/demand". Illegal labor is far closer to being decided by supply and demand than a typical unskilled laborer. The black market is the only free market.
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The only free market? Try selling dope in pretty much any inner city neighborhood and let us know how free that market is.

An illegal will work for less than a citizen because they simply have no other choice. I'm tired of hearing that the illegals will do jobs Americans wont do. Americans won't do back breaking dirty jobs for 10 bucks/hour. Get rid of the illegals that are artificially lowering wages and let the legal market find the appropriate wage.
 
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#55
#55
IPleadInsanity said:
The problem is the untenable amount of unskilled workers in the marketplace, not the minimum wage. Like repairing a broken bone with rubbing alcohol! Why is this country creating so many unskilled workers?
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Do we have more unskilled workers compared to the past? I would bet as a % of the population we are doing better than ever...
 
#56
#56
ruger1234 said:
The only free market? Try selling dope in pretty much any inner city neighborhood and let us know how free that market is.

An illegal will work for less than a citizen because they simply have no other choice. I'm tired of hearing that the illegals will do jobs Americans wont do. Americans won't do back breaking dirty jobs for 10 bucks/hour. Get rid of the illegals that are artificially lowering wages and let the legal market find the appropriate wage.
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How will paying more for everything improve the economy? This is the type of FDR solution that made the depression last 10 years
 
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#57
#57
n_huffhines said:
How will paying more for everything improve the economy? This is the type of FDR solution that made the depression last 10 years
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All I want is a level playing field for all. The millions of illegals has tilted the balance away from low skilled workers.
 
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#58
#58
ruger1234 said:
The only free market? Try selling dope in pretty much any inner city neighborhood and let us know how free that market is.

An illegal will work for less than a citizen because they simply have no other choice. I'm tired of hearing that the illegals will do jobs Americans wont do. Americans won't do back breaking dirty jobs for 10 bucks/hour. Get rid of the illegals that are artificially lowering wages and let the legal market find the appropriate wage.
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Illegals aren't "artificially lowering wages". You're using the right economic terms, you're just grossly misunderstanding them. The government artificially inflates wages. Illegals work for whatever wage they can get in the market. Illegal immigrants work in a market where they can freely negotiate their salary with their employer. You and I do not.
 
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#61
#61
Vol8188 said:
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I always think of the government as that nice old guy from The Grapes of Wrath :)

Jim-Rawley.jpg
 
#62
#62
MT LeConte said:
Growing up my teachers and parents often would state that all work is honorable. "An honest days work for an honest days pay". There are now a lot of people putting in an honest days work but getting short changed on the honest pay. How honorable can one feel working full time yet needing subsistence to feed and clothe the family? If Wally and McD were on the brink of collapse perhaps one could buy into their argument. But they're not on the brink and are actually quite financially healthy. They are fighting minimum wage only out of greed . Sure, I agree they have the right to do it. But should they?

I don't agree that it would hurt startups and small businesses. IMO, and it is only an opinion, having millions of workers making a living wage would be a benefit to those small businesses .
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The inflation adjusted minimum wage from it's inception (1938) is equivalent to 4.25 - hardly honest pay for an honest day's work.

Since the 60's it's been hovering around a current day equivalent of 9 bucks.

We are a bit short of that now but 15 bucks an hour would be a historic rise (67%) in the historic minimum wage.

So it wasn't the good ole days where we paid people much more than today.

The minimum wage has never been at the level being advocated.
 
#63
#63
MT LeConte said:
What is rigged labor force? Where have you been for the last 20+ years? This link will explain it better than I can. It comes from a Liberal perspective. If you really want the answer read it. If not quit asking questions.


The Agenda to Raise America’s Pay | Economic Policy Institute




.
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As I pointed out above, minimum wage has never been historically where it is being advocated now. This isn't some new phenomenon where the greedy are screwing workers.

If you look at our history prosperity follows economic growth rather than wage controls. Our recovery from the Depression and victory in WWII set us up with capability and virtually non-existent competition.

Growth begat labor demand which begat increasing wages. The so called honest pay for an honest day was not the result of government wage policy - it was sustained economic growth.
 
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#64
#64
MT LeConte said:
No. I'm a disabled veteran. I have an only brother who owns a small dry cleaning business with six take in store fronts and the cleaning operation. I have done and occasionally still do some general office work for him. He pays his employees better than average and does ok but he's not wealthy.

I usually work for bourbon and beer.

Your turn.



.
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Do any of his employees get any kind of public assistance? If so, he's getting corporate welfare and we are all subsidizing his employees so he can make a profit (according to the OP video).

Your booze pay scale makes more sense :)
 
#65
#65
Part of the problem is that we, as older folks perhaps, are accustomed to thinking about these jobs as something you do in high school, or summers off from school, to make money for a car, a scooter, a vacation.

Things have changed. For some, working fast food is end of the line. They do it to pay rent, clothe a child, pay for medications.
 
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#66
#66
lawgator1 said:
Part of the problem is that we, as older folks perhaps, are accustomed to thinking about these jobs as something you do in high school, or summers off from school, to make money for a car, a scooter, a vacation.

Things have changed. For some, working fast food is end of the line. They do it to pay rent, clothe a child, pay for medications.
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I'm not sure if it has changed that much (there's always been career diner waitresses, etc)

Assuming it has changed the question begged is why? Why are these people stuck in a fast food job? Would raising the minimum wage change the underlying conditions?
 
#67
#67
lawgator1 said:
Part of the problem is that we, as older folks perhaps, are accustomed to thinking about these jobs as something you do in high school, or summers off from school, to make money for a car, a scooter, a vacation.

Things have changed. For some, working fast food is end of the line. They do it to pay rent, clothe a child, pay for medications.
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Fast food may be their career, but cashier shouldn't be. And if it is, you are going to struggle in life.
 
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#68
#68
IPleadInsanity said:
The problem is the untenable amount of unskilled workers in the marketplace, not the minimum wage. Like repairing a broken bone with rubbing alcohol! Why is this country creating so many unskilled workers?
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Because inner city kids want to be Lebron James and not Ben Carson.
 
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#70
#70
Vol8188 said:
Illegals aren't "artificially lowering wages". You're using the right economic terms, you're just grossly misunderstanding them. The government artificially inflates wages. Illegals work for whatever wage they can get in the market. Illegal immigrants work in a market where they can freely negotiate their salary with their employer. You and I do not.
Click to expand...


It's not rocket science, illegal is you know illegal, legal is within the boundaries of the law. Illegal labor is operating outside the boundaries for both the laborers and the employers. Allowing this depresses the wage of legal workers. It would be akin to allowing untaxed liquor to be sold alongside taxed liquor.
 
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#72
#72
I don't care if the .gov forces businesses to pay $15/hour or $50/hour. What the .gov doesn't seem to acknowledge (publicly anyway) is that the pay rate does not = paycheck. Businesses know how much they can/will pay, and will adjust their employees' work rules/hours to meet that requirement. It is actually extreme pandering by the libtards to the idiot masses, because they haven't figured that out yet. I am going to pay my floor sweepers X amount/week. If he gets it at $15/hour or $5/hour it doesn't matter to me. But NOW with Obolacare, I can make him a part time employee, and shed his benefits as well. Brilliant.
 
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#74
#74
ruger1234 said:
It's not rocket science, illegal is you know illegal, legal is within the boundaries of the law. Illegal labor is operating outside the boundaries for both the laborers and the employers. Allowing this depresses the wage of legal workers. It would be akin to allowing untaxed liquor to be sold alongside taxed liquor.
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Idk how you're not understanding this. It's not "depressing wages". It's the complete opposite. It's allowing employees and employers to actually negotiate their own contracts at whatever price the market sets. It's the complete opposite of what is allowed with the legal work force.
 
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#75
#75
VolnJC said:
I honestly don't hate the idea if these other things happened....

1) we gotta get some of the loads who are on disability back to work..there is a direct correlation to the people who came off public aid that went on disability

2) force the unemployed to search for work and provide incentives for employers (govt pays 1/2 of wages for six months) and

3) end earned income credit

I honestly think that employers would do a good job of absorbing these costs without raising prices too much

http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/


pm-gr-disabilityvswelfare-616.gif


pm-gr-ssi_kids-616.gif
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Do the charts have greater or lesser impact if adjusted for the impact of significant forcing variables such as for population increase, illegal immigration, etc.?
 
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