The (many) indictments of Donald Trump

[Orangeburst]

There are too many outcomes whereby the federal courts don't have to put their own cache on the line that there's no way they intervene in any time line that matters.

Trump could be acquitted.

There could be a hung jury.

He could be convicted but win on appeal two years from now.

He could win the election and stay everything while in office.

He could lose the election and no longer care to spend millions on this.

The timeline is exactly why they would intervene.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

Not a fan of SCOTUS stepping in here.

But has the DA still not defined what the underlying crime is that elevates this to a felony?

@BigOrangeMojo ?

I don't see it tbh. See no slam-dunk IRS tax issue. NYS state tax starting point is the IRC so don't see that angle. I've got enough experience to be dangerous with FEC filings but no way near an expert there. You have the precedent with John Edwards. Was payment made solely for election purposes or was it partially to prevent business, brand and personal embarrasment. If you have reasonable doubt that it wasn't at least partially business, personal, or brand, you have to acquit.

The biggest violation I saw was Cohen paying (and shorting) the polling company and having that as part of his "retainer". I think you may have the underlying crime here but I don't think you have intent though.

There was clearly a misdemeanor falsification of records. I don't see the second underlying crime to bump it up.

 

[CobbVol]

I don't see it tbh. See no slam-dunk IRS tax issue. NYS state tax starting point is the IRC so don't see that angle. I've got enough experience to be dangerous with FEC filings but no way near an expert there. You have the precedent with John Edwards. Was payment made solely for election purposes or was it partially to prevent business, brand and personal embarrasment. If you have reasonable doubt that it wasn't at least partially business, personal, or brand, you have to acquit.

The biggest violation I saw was Cohen paying (and shorting) the polling company and having that as part of his "retainer". I think you may have the underlying crime here but I don't think you have intent though.

There was clearly a misdemeanor falsification of records. I don't see the second underlying crime to bump it up.

Judge Merchan has ruled that the jury does not have to agree on what the crime is. They could all think different crimes were committed and he would treat it as a unanimous verdict.

 

[Orangeburst]

Judge Merchan has ruled that the jury does not have to agree on what the crime is. They could all think different crimes were committed and he would treat it as a unanimous verdict.

it apparently wouldnt stand on appeal, but anything to get a conviction. I really dont think the Dems want him in prison. Opens up can o worms.

but who knows with these cray cray

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

The biggest issue for intent is:

Given the timing, Trump wouldn't have had to report the arrangement with Cohen to the FEC until after the election. If Trump, according to several witnesses, just wanted to make it to election, then why would he go to all this trouble for a legal reimbursement that would not need to be reported until after the election?

I struggle with intent too.

 

[CobbVol]

it apparently wouldnt stand on appeal, but anything to get a conviction. I really dont think the Dems want him in prison. Opens up can o worms.

but who knows with these cray cray

I don't think worrying on an appeal matters to them.
This is all about labeling him a convicted felon before the election.
Then having the media call on any who plans to vote for him some form of an "___ist".
Then if he still get through this and wins in November, the convicted felon tag will be the reason that congress cannot certify the election results.

 

[85SugarVol]

I don't see it tbh. See no slam-dunk IRS tax issue. NYS state tax starting point is the IRC so don't see that angle. I've got enough experience to be dangerous with FEC filings but no way near an expert there. You have the precedent with John Edwards. Was payment made solely for election purposes or was it partially to prevent business, brand and personal embarrasment. If you have reasonable doubt that it wasn't at least partially business, personal, or brand, you have to acquit.

The biggest violation I saw was Cohen paying (and shorting) the polling company and having that as part of his "retainer". I think you may have the underlying crime here but I don't think you have intent though.

There was clearly a misdemeanor falsification of records. I don't see the second underlying crime to bump it up.

Thanks for the input.

Has the DA explicitly defined/stated what they believe is the underlying crime?

 

[BreatheUT]

We can only hope that after his disgusting outburst today, E. Jean Carroll takes the gangster to court a third time.
It would be delicious. One of the many issues with trump, personally, is that he's been a bully and a conman all his life who's never
been held accountable. Now he is, and of course he doesn't like it.

She fine ain't she turbo? Your type of windbag. I'm guessing you won't get to celebrate with your crush on using +$80M

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

Thanks for the input.

Has the DA explicitly defined/stated what they believe is the underlying crime?

Realistically, the only way you can get there is if you believe the following 3 things

1. Trump falsified or knew the records were falsified - I strongly believe this happened

2. The payment arrangement to Stormy was exclusively a campaign expense and was not an expense to prevent personal, business, or brand damage. - I believe some combination of these 4 reasons existed. If you go back to John Edwards, there is precedent here for it not to be a campaign expense.

3. Trump intended to falsify the records in (1) to cover up the campaign finance violation in (2). - If Trump was so concerned about just making it to election day, why would he cover up something that wouldn't be reported until after election day. The other thing, honestly, is Trump even smart or in the weeds enough to know about campaign finance rules?

 

[Sandman 423]

The Biden campaign showing up at the Manhattan courthouse to hold a press conference doesn't exactly help sell that Biden isn't involved what is going on in the court room.

Who thought that having De Niro walk up in a mask, remove it when he was closest to the most people, and go on a tirade was a good move?

 

[JOEY’S ALL VOL !!!]

Not a fan of SCOTUS stepping in here.

But has the DA still not defined what the underlying crime is that elevates this to a felony?

@BigOrangeMojo ?

Well, he hasn’t come right out and said it to the whole world, but Trump is running for President again and that’s the felony in any leftist’s eyes.

 

[LibertyVol]

No, you don't. You know nothing. CNN is FAR more reputable than fox, and I can tell you that without bias or hesitation.

Lol. You are the man.

 

[LibertyVol]

The Biden campaign showing up at the Manhattan courthouse to hold a press conference doesn't exactly help sell that Biden isn't involved what is going on in the court room.

Who thought that having De Niro walk up in a mask, remove it when he was closest to the most people, and go on a tirade was a good move?

These idiots are about to lose a fixed election. And they are running the country.

 

[Gandalf]

Realistically, the only way you can get there is if you believe the following 3 things

1. Trump falsified or knew the records were falsified - I strongly believe this happened

2. The payment arrangement to Stormy was exclusively a campaign expense and was not an expense to prevent personal, business, or brand damage. - I believe some combination of these 4 reasons existed. If you go back to John Edwards, there is precedent here for it not to be a campaign expense.

3. Trump intended to falsify the records in (1) to cover up the campaign finance violation in (2). - If Trump was so concerned about just making it to election day, why would he cover up something that wouldn't be reported until after election day. The other thing, honestly, is Trump even smart or in the weeds enough to know about campaign finance rules?

#1 almost zero chance Trump “knew” they were falsified, much less did it himself. People act like Trump pays bills like they do. I can tell you that he does not. He would have told his flunky Cohen to “ settle this” and then another flunky, his chief bookkeeper would have paid it. He already testified for the gov that he never discussed it with Trump (didn’t get to talk with him much anyway) and when he recorded the payment, he just used the drop down to categorize “Legal expenses”.

 

[jvol1]

So what's trump going to do in retaliation for this prosecution if elected?

Death camps?
Become dictator?

These prosecutions seem to be a good example of how are parties are being manipulated against each other by foreign influence, super charging faction and disrupting our government. Will anyone wakeup to this and fight it?

 

[LibertyVol]

#1 almost zero chance Trump “knew” they were falsified, much less did it himself. People act like Trump pays bills like they do. I can tell you that he does not. He would have told his flunky Cohen to “ settle this” and then another flunky, his chief bookkeeper would have paid it. He already testified for the gov that he never discussed it with Trump (didn’t get to talk with him much anyway) and when he recorded the payment, he just used the drop down to categorize “Legal expenses”.

No, no, no. This is common sense. He has to be hung to protect democracy and the human race. On with the show trial and the execution. We have to get this done before November.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

#1 almost zero chance Trump “knew” they were falsified, much less did it himself. People act like Trump pays bills like they do. I can tell you that he does not. He would have told his flunky Cohen to “ settle this” and then another flunky, his chief bookkeeper would have paid it. He already testified for the gov that he never discussed it with Trump (didn’t get to talk with him much anyway) and when he recorded the payment, he just used the drop down to categorize “Legal expenses”.

Trump is head and is responsible. In the prior trial, he had his accounting team create fake income statements. I know you are drinking the Kool Aid but come on Man....

This wasn't about a drop down line in a ledger, it was all about creating an entire fake series of invoices to cover a retainer that did not exist in reality....

I mean, Trump's own attorney has largely conceded the argument on the falsification but hey, you know more, right...

 

[Cod]

So what's trump going to do in retaliation for this prosecution if elected?

Death camps?
Become dictator?

These prosecutions seem to be a good example of how are parties are being manipulated against each other by foreign influence, super charging faction and disrupting our government. Will anyone wakeup to this and fight it?

The only thing that has come out of his mouth was that his greatest revenge would be to make his presidency and the country successful.

Now if you listen to some on this board, Biden or De Niro he's going to be a dictator and never leave, end the country, end NYC, it'll be the root of all evil......

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

 

[CobbVol]

Trump is head and is responsible. In the prior trial, he had his accounting team create fake income statements. I know you are drinking the Kool Aid but come on Man....

This wasn't about a drop down line in a ledger, it was all about creating an entire fake series of invoices to cover a retainer that did not exist in reality....

I mean, Trump's own attorney has largely conceded the argument on the falsification but hey, you know more, right...

Where is this?

 

[turbovol]

No, no, no. This is common sense. He has to be hung to protect democracy and the human race. On with the show trial and the execution. We have to get this done before November.

Poor, poor man. It's SUCH a shame that such a sweet, gracious, virtuous, law-abiding individual has to be subjected to these accusations, charges and trials. I take comfort in knowing, as he's said, that he's suffering for us. That were it not for his courage and sacrifice, the government would be coming after us for trying to engineer a coup and inciting a mob attack on the U.S. Capitol that resulted in the deaths of police officers, for stealing classified documents and lying about it, for major business tax fraud, for assaulting a woman and defaming her, for paying hush money to prostitutes--and for wanting to please the tyrant who's long been America's chief enemy. We are so very lucky to have a man like HIM to bear these unfair wounds, because we know that he's only trying to make America great again. I nearly cried the other day watching him walk around a NASCAR venue saluting the food vendors maintenance personnel---such a patriot. And his touching Memorial Day message was heart-rending. I have put on my gold Donnie Trump trainers and will keep my hand on his Donnie Trump bible--you know that he cherishes the Good Book--while awaiting the verdict.

 

[Sudden Impact]

I guess this is dart throwing day 1. Some of the questions/statements being asked/made are like some just wandered aimlessly into the thread.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

Where is this?

Go through the closing arguments. Essentially Trump's lawyers have stated if this (falsification) is true, there is no intent because it was disclosed to IRS and Election forms..I do think this may sway at least one person on the jury to hang.

Trump's own lawyers got Cohen to testify there was no retainer agreement (in order to further discredit him).

They've largely conceded that the docs were falsified; they are still trying to thread the needle with plausible deniability for Trump. Just prior practice and a paper trial makes the plausible deniability argument hard to make. Not to mention Trump is officer of the corp and at the very minimum, the shenanigans involved his direct report...