The murder of Ahmaud Arbery

[bamawriter]

yeah I saw video today where arberry had been inside that house several times at night.... I haven’t followed the story that closely.... I had heard about earlier break ins in that area..... is that true?

The McMichaels told the cops that there had been multiple break-ins during the general period before the shooting. There is a police report of a gun being stolen from a truck outside their home, but that is the only police report filed in the whole neighborhood during the 2 months prior to the shooting. There is no video of that particular break-in.

 

[bamawriter]

"Don't blame me. I didn't do it. I don't want to have anything to do with this."

After all that has happened, on that day and since, his statement is understandable but is immaterial to this case, just like Arbery's prior history.

It's not immaterial at all. It confirms that the McMichaels did not know about Arbery's trespass at the unfinished house, that they had no way of knowing about it, and that the owner of the property did not authorize anyone to act as his agents regarding the trespass. If you don't see the materiality of those facts, then you're kidding yourself.

 

[37L1]

It's not immaterial at all. It confirms that the McMichaels did not know about Arbery's trespass at the unfinished house, that they had no way of knowing about it, and that the owner of the property did not authorize anyone to act as his agents regarding the trespass. If you don't see the materiality of those facts, then you're kidding yourself.

You don't know as much about the law or this case as you think you do.

 

[Behr]

I think it sounds like you are in disagreement. I understand.

Disagreement with what?

I said I didn't know if everything he said we're facts. Are you sure everything he said were actually fact?

According to him citizens arrest is permitted in Georgia. Do the arresting citizens have to say anything to the suspect while they are chasing them? Did they let Arbery know they were attempting to arrest him, citizen style? Why did he stop giving all the facts when he got to the most important part of the whole thing?

Yes, I'm in disagreement and that's why.

 

[37L1]

Disagreement with what?

I said I didn't know if everything he said we're facts. Are you sure everything he said were actually fact?

According to him citizens arrest is permitted in Georgia. Do the arresting citizens have to say anything to the suspect while they are chasing them? Did they let Arbery know they were attempting to arrest him, citizen style? Why did he stop giving all the facts when he got to the most important part of the whole thing?

Yes, I'm in disagreement and that's why.

Disagreement with what?

Yes, I'm in disagreement and that's why.

Well you answered your own question didn't you?

No, I'm not sure "everything he said were actually fact." Did I ever say that I did?

What I did say:

The most important thing that he says is that nobody has all the facts yet and more will come out particularly as this case goes to trial.

 

[bamawriter]

You don't know as much about the law or this case as you think you do.

Okay. Is anything in my post incorrect? If you don't know with certainty that it's incorrect, do you have any reason to doubt that it's correct?

 

[bamawriter]

Well you answered your own question didn't you?

No, I'm not sure "everything he said were actually fact." Did I ever say that I did?

Are you not bothered by the "facts" that he presented that we know to be incorrect?

 

[Behr]

Well you answered your own question didn't you?

No, I'm not sure "everything he said were actually fact." Did I ever say that I did?

Tough questions to answer, I understand. Never mind.

 

[Rickyvol77]

No one is talking about Sr. riding in the back of the truck cowboy style with a drawn handgun.

It was on his holster until Arbery attacked his son

 

[1972 Grad]

It was on his holster until Arbery attacked his son

Some may have missed that fact.

 

[37L1]

Okay. What about anything that you responded to is incorrect? If you don't know with certainty that it's incorrect, do you have any reason to doubt that it's incorrect?

I'm not sure what the motive was for the McMichael's and their neighbor to give chase so quickly after Arbery ran out of the dwelling under renovation, do you? Did they see him, did someone tell them what happened? Do you know for sure? In the video from across the street, someone can be seen approaching the dwelling Arbery was in and immediately Arbery runs out and takes off. Who was that person? What was said? Do you know for sure? Could it have been McMichael? Do you know for sure? I don't know what was said between Arbery or the McMichaels during the chase and the encounter, do you?

I don't know the answer to any of the above, maybe you do? Those questions are just for starters and just some of many regarding this case. There will be some answers, sure, but there will also be a lot more questions, that you or I don't know the answers to yet and may never know.

 

[37L1]

Are you not bothered by the "facts" that he presented that we know to be incorrect?

Sure, if that's the case. I know this, I'm less sure about things than either you are he is.

 

[1972 Grad]

I'm not sure what the motive was for the McMichael's and their neighbor to give chase so quickly after Arbery ran out of the dwelling under renovation, do you? Did they see him, did someone tell them what happened? Do you know for sure? In the video from across the street, someone can be seen approaching the dwelling Arbery was in and immediately Arbery runs out and takes off. Who was that person? What was said? Do you know for sure? Could it have been McMichael? Do you know for sure? I don't know what was said between Arbery or the McMichaels during the chase and the encounter, do you?

I don't know the answer to any of the above, maybe you do? Those questions are just for starters and just some of many regarding this case. There will be some answers, sure, but there will also be a lot more questions, that you or I don't know the answers to yet and may never know.

We will know more than the experts on VN who have already rushed to judgement now know.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

There is some legal reasoning why two prosecutors took a flier on this and another wanted the grand jury to decide. People want to believe that it's all some sort of incestuous bubba favoritism, but that just doesn't fly in this day and age. I'm not licensed in GA and have no intention to waste my time Shepardizing their depression-era case law on citizen's arrest. What I do know is politicians and there's no way in hell that three elected officials risk their careers just to cover for a retired cop. There is something out there, legally or factually, that they can hang their hats on. I think the GBI did what the Governor told them to do to avoid civil unrest in pandemic times.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

According to the video at #2242, everybody was. I guess you need to brush up on Georgia law.

I've read the laws in question. The shooter was not within his rights when he improperly attempted to make a citizen's arrest.

 

[1972 Grad]

I've read the laws in question. The shooter was not within his rights when he improperly attempted to make a citizen's arrest.

So, you were there and heard everything that was said?

 

[1972 Grad]

There is some legal reasoning why two prosecutors took a flier on this and another wanted the grand jury to decide. People want to believe that it's all some sort of incestuous bubba favoritism, but that just doesn't fly in this day and age. I'm not licensed in GA and have no intention to waste my time Shepardizing their depression-era case law on citizen's arrest. What I do know is politicians and there's no way in hell that three elected officials risk their careers just to cover for a retired cop. There is something out there, legally or factually, that they can hang their hats on. I think the GBI did what the Governor told them to do to avoid civil unrest in pandemic times.

Makes sense to me. If it was as much of a slam dunk as our VN super sleuths think that it is, things would have gone down differently. All they are doing is setting up a chance for rioting if they are overcharged and found not guilty or a hung jury.

 

[NurseGoodVol]

It's hard for me to believe that any sane person would run at a guy with a shotgun.

That still puzzles me.

 

[bamawriter]

I'm not sure what the motive was for the McMichael's and their neighbor to give chase so quickly after Arbery ran out of the dwelling under renovation, do you?

I know the reason Greg McMichael gave the cops. Is there a reason I should doubt his own words?

Did they see him, did someone tell them what happened?

If someone told McMichael about Arbery in the house, why didn't he tell the police what he'd been told?

In the video from across the street, someone can be seen approaching the dwelling Arbery was in and immediately Arbery runs out and takes off. Who was that person? What was said?

The GBI says it was the person who made the first 911 call. I have no reason to doubt that, because the person who made the first call was describing Arbery in and around the house.

Could it have been McMichael?

No.

Do you know for sure?

If the person in the video was McMichael, then he lied to the police about where he was and what he was doing when he first saw Arbery. His statement to the cops was that he was in front of his house when he saw Arbery "hauling ass down the street." McMichael's property is down the block from the unfinished house, not across the street.

I don't know what was said between Arbery or the McMichaels during the chase and the encounter, do you?

Other than the brief moments that can be heard on McMichael's 911 call, no. I also can't hypothesize any potential conversation that would have any effect on who is criminally responsible for Arbery's death, but perhaps I lack imagination.

 

[bamawriter]

Sure, if that's the case. I know this, I'm less sure about things than either you are he is.

So you're sceptical about facts that aren't in dispute?

 

[GreyWolf1129]

In situations like this, "optics", "perception", and politics always come in to play. That's just how it is.

With regards to some of the posts I've perused over, here are a few comments, in no particular order:
- In Georgia, a citizen's arrest can only be made for a felony. I posted this before, but use Justia to read the applicable statute(s) for yourself. Pay attention to the keys words in the statutes.
Edit: In post #1893, I addressed the "burglary" question.
- The McMichael's lived a ways down the road. In the video taken across the street from the house under construction, their residence is at the top of the frame, on the same side, almost out of view. How they were alerted to his presence is beyond my knowledge. Maybe they saw him approaching them; maybe someone called them. It will come out at trial, if not before.
- As of yesterday the Georgia AG asked the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Georgia to look into this case, specifically the actions of the Glynn and Ware DA's. Scroll back a bit, and I tried to give you all hints that this ran deeper than it first appeared, and that things were about to get "interesting" down here. And so it begins. Probably take some time for this part to play out, but stay tuned. I'll go out on a limb here and predict that the DA seats in Glynn and Ware will have new occupants in the end. If not by election, then by executive action at the state level.
- My opinion, after learning a bit more about the initial investigation, is that the officers of Glynn County PD did everything by the book. If you're looking for blame, you've gotta aim higher.

Now...back in my cave. My bottle of Woodford Double Oak came in today.....

 

[vollygirl]

For anyone looking for post 1893. (I bolded the two sentences below, not the OP.) Just cause this has been brought up several times.

Yeah, we'll see where that goes. He has been interviewed at least once that I know of, and likely more than once by more than one agency. Once GBI came onboard, things moved pretty fast.

As for the conversation regarding a "burglary", OCGA 16-7-1 lays it out (try Justia.com to read it for yourself), but the basic elements of a burglary are that a person "without authority", "with the intent to commit a theft or felony therein", "enters or remains in a ________ ." (several options here).

So, wrt Mr. Arbery, he did enter...and we can assume without authority. Problem is, there's no evidence at all of "intent to commit a theft or felony therein." Two out of three is good in baseball, but it won't net you a burglary arrest in Georgia.

No burglary. Plain and simple. Criminal Trespass? Maybe, but only if (a) he had been previously warned by the property owner or law enforcement not to enter the property, or (b) it was properly posted. On that point, I don't know the facts, but if there's no burglary, there's no legal citizens arrest, and at that point you're trying to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t.

And lest we forget, Georgia law allows for resistance to what is believed to be an illegal arrest. Not much noise on here about that little nugget.

Take a deep breath, and let this all play out. Like I said before, it's about to get interesting in these parts...

 

[1972 Grad]

That still puzzles me.

Maybe he was a badass, but a stupid badass.

 

[RockyTop85]

"Don't blame me. I didn't do it. I don't want to have anything to do with this."

After all that has happened, on that day and since, his statement is understandable but is immaterial to this case, just like Arbery's prior history.

They made the statement that was in his best interest given the proclivities of everyone else involved and the potential for negative consequences...

Sounds familiar...

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

In situations like this, "optics", "perception", and politics always come in to play. That's just how it is.

With regards to some of the posts I've perused over, here are a few comments, in no particular order:
- In Georgia, a citizen's arrest can only be made for a felony. I posted this before, but use Justia to read the applicable statute(s) for yourself. Pay attention to the keys words in the statutes.
Edit: In post #1893, I addressed the "burglary" question.
- The McMichael's lived a ways down the road. In the video taken across the street from the house under construction, their residence is at the top of the frame, on the same side, almost out of view. How they were alerted to his presence is beyond my knowledge. Maybe they saw him approaching them; maybe someone called them. It will come out at trial, if not before.
- As of yesterday the Georgia AG asked the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Georgia to look into this case, specifically the actions of the Glynn and Ware DA's. Scroll back a bit, and I tried to give you all hints that this ran deeper than it first appeared, and that things were about to get "interesting" down here. And so it begins. Probably take some time for this part to play out, but stay tuned. I'll go out on a limb here and predict that the DA seats in Glynn and Ware will have new occupants in the end. If not by election, then by executive action at the state level.
- My opinion, after learning a bit more about the initial investigation, is that the officers of Glynn County PD did everything by the book. If you're looking for blame, you've gotta aim higher.

Now...back in my cave. My bottle of Woodford Double Oak came in today.....

Anything is possible and I could buy one DA doing a solid for an old friend, but this is three DAs who didn't pull the trigger despite the video. None of them will come out at this point and undermine a prosecution but there has to be more to this. DA is a coveted gig, real money, great benefits, and often a path to a judgeship. Any politician with a brain would've seen the racial angle on this coming. I just can't imagine three of these people doing an ole' for one old cop.