The Numbers Thread

#277
#277
LebanonVolunteer said:
There are cases where I have no issue at all with sending a kid on his way. IF they are not doing things the right way(as I mentioned in my earlier post), then it is what it is. Just because a kid is not All SEC by his SO/JR year IMO is not cause to "clear them out" for the next unproven kid coming in. JMO

Every school roster in the country has role players on it. I have no issue at all with Tennessee having some role players on their roster. Especially when those kids are doing things the right way.
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UT plays in the SEC. Coach Jones will be retained/fired, depending on his team's performance in the SEC. Much of that performance will depend on having SEC-level players. Passing over a promising recruit to retain proven sub-SEC talent, especially when it's apparent they're giving their all and still falling short, is career suicide.

Especially considering that CBJ is in a transition period, coaching players that he didn't recruit, I give him a pass if he needs to clean house a bit to make room. He didn't offer these kids out of high school. He didn't make any promises to their future. I would venture the guess that he came in and made a few promises of his own.

"The time for competition has begun. We will start winning and it begins with your effort. Prove yourself, and you'll succeed. Fail to make the cut, and we'll move someone in that will. I wasn't brought here to coddle you. I was brought here to get the most out of you, produce the most in you, and win football games."

If you have someone on the team that will obviously not contribute, the right thing to do is be honest and give them opportunity to go produce somewhere.

The 'everyone get a trophy' mentality is killing our culture. It produces a sense of entitlement, and not work ethic. And it works out for little league coaches that volunteer their time. It doesn't work when guys are fulfilling multi-million dollar contracts to win, keep their jobs, and rebuild programs.
 
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#278
#278
Orange_Crush said:
UT plays in the SEC. Coach Jones will be retained/fired, depending on his team's performance in the SEC. Much of that performance will depend on having SEC-level players. Passing over a promising recruit to retain proven sub-SEC talent, especially when it's apparent they're giving their all and still falling short, is career suicide.

Especially considering that CBJ is in a transition period, coaching players that he didn't recruit, I give him a pass if he needs to clean house a bit to make room. He didn't offer these kids out of high school. He didn't make any promises to their future. I would venture the guess that he came in and made a few promises of his own.

"The time for competition has begun. We will start winning and it begins with your effort. Prove yourself, and you'll succeed. Fail to make the cut, and we'll move someone in that will. I wasn't brought here to coddle you. I was brought here to get the most out of you, produce the most in you, and win football games."

If you have someone on the team that will obviously not contribute, the right thing to do is be honest and give them opportunity to go produce somewhere.

The 'everyone get a trophy' mentality is killing our culture. It produces a sense of entitlement, and not work ethic. And it works out for little league coaches that volunteer their time. It doesn't work when guys are fulfilling multi-million dollar contracts to win, keep their jobs, and rebuild programs.
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Preach.
 
#279
#279
Orange_Crush said:
UT plays in the SEC. Coach Jones will be retained/fired, depending on his team's performance in the SEC. Much of that performance will depend on having SEC-level players. Passing over a promising recruit to retain proven sub-SEC talent, especially when it's apparent they're giving their all and still falling short, is career suicide.

Especially considering that CBJ is in a transition period, coaching players that he didn't recruit, I give him a pass if he needs to clean house a bit to make room. He didn't offer these kids out of high school. He didn't make any promises to their future. I would venture the guess that he came in and made a few promises of his own.

"The time for competition has begun. We will start winning and it begins with your effort. Prove yourself, and you'll succeed. Fail to make the cut, and we'll move someone in that will. I wasn't brought here to coddle you. I was brought here to get the most out of you, produce the most in you, and win football games."

If you have someone on the team that will obviously not contribute, the right thing to do is be honest and give them opportunity to go produce somewhere.

The 'everyone get a trophy' mentality is killing our culture. It produces a sense of entitlement, and not work ethic. And it works out for little league coaches that volunteer their time. It doesn't work when guys are fulfilling multi-million dollar contracts to win, keep their jobs, and rebuild programs.
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So can a kid not have the right work ethic and still not be an SEC football star? I tend to think they could. Every roster in the country has role players. Yes, those players should get a trophy as well IMO. :)
 
#280
#280
Mike Slive and other conference commissioners are pushing hard for new conference and NCAA legislation to guarantee scholarships for 4 years versus the current year by year renewable scholarships.
 
#281
#281
Tux said:
Mike Slive and other conference commissioners are pushing hard for new conference and NCAA legislation to guarantee scholarships for 4 years versus the current year by year renewable scholarships.
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I'd love to see it.

Of course there would have to be guidelines on what a student athlete has to meet to remain on scholarship, but IMO would help solidify what a "commitment" is.
 
#282
#282
bignewt said:
The answer lies in looking at other championship programs.
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Similarly, the answer lies in understanding the goal. The goal is not only to have a family atmosphere where we support each other. The goal is to win championships. I don't think CBJ & staff are interested in being jerks and/or lying, misrepresenting, or abusing these athletes. They are, however, honest with them in their evaluations of their talent. If you find three people in the same seat on the bus, and you are a straight shooter, why would you not identify areas of weakness and present options for improvement and/or more playing time in another program?
 
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#283
#283
LV like...

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#285
#285
LebanonVolunteer said:
I'd love to see it.

Of course there would have to be guidelines on what a student athlete has to meet to remain on scholarship, but IMO would help solidify what a "commitment" is.
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It would also dramatically change how coaches recruit and who they recruit to their schools.
 
#286
#286
Tux said:
It would also dramatically change how coaches recruit and who they recruit to their schools.
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I agree. Would have coaches being much more careful about taking the kid with the "issues". A lot more likely his *'s just don't mean as much if he is high risk. Would also make it an even playing field for all schools. Shady tactics would no longer be a tool used by certain programs.
 
#287
#287
LebanonVolunteer said:
So can a kid not have the right work ethic and still not be an SEC football star? I tend to think they could. Every roster in the country has role players. Yes, those players should get a trophy as well IMO. :)
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This isn't a question about someone who works hard and succeeds. It's a question of someone who works hard, doesn't succeed, and is bypassed for a more talented recruit to get the chance to succeed.

I have news for you, if a kid works his tail off, produces on the field, and makes a success through sweat, he will not be bypassed for someone else. But I think we both know that's not what is being discussed.

If a kid tries his hardest and still doesn't make the grade, he should be given an honest conversation, and told his options. The best option is usually a transfer to the level of competition where he will most likely be successful.

But for the sake of conversation, if not the actual conversation we're having, if a kid succeeds through sweat and makes up talent with work and determination, he should get a trophy, as well as another invented for his accomplishment.

But again... That's not the kid CBJ will move along to make room.
 
#288
#288
I am not as concerned about the numbers as much as offensive line depth. Seems we are still thin, or under developed there. All of the other positions seem to be filling up nicely.
 
#289
#289
onevol74 said:
I am not as concerned about the numbers as much as offensive line depth. Seems we are still thin, or under developed there. All of the other positions seem to be filling up nicely.
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It could use a few more depth wise for sure. I think we currently have 11-12 OL kids on scholarship. As others have mentioned, there may be 1-2 more possible flipped to the OL from the 8-9 man DL class of 2014. The good thing is just about all of the kids except 2 I believe currently on campus at OL will be back next year. Add 3 in 2015, 3-4 in 2016 and IMO we are alright. Just have to develop the talent. That is kind of the key thing. Does not matter how many *'s you sign, if you don't develop them.
 
#290
#290
Orange_Crush said:
This isn't a question about someone who works hard and succeeds. It's a question of someone who works hard, doesn't succeed, and is bypassed for a more talented recruit to get the chance to succeed.

I have news for you, if a kid works his tail off, produces on the field, and makes a success through sweat, he will not be bypassed for someone else. But I think we both know that's not what is being discussed.

If a kid tries his hardest and still doesn't make the grade, he should be given an honest conversation, and told his options. The best option is usually a transfer to the level of competition where he will most likely be successful.

But for the sake of conversation, if not the actual conversation we're having, if a kid succeeds through sweat and makes up talent with work and determination, he should get a trophy, as well as another invented for his accomplishment.

But again... That's not the kid CBJ will move along to make room.
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I would guess for me it comes down to what I consider succeeding student athlete wise and what you view it as. Obviously we see it very differently.
 
#291
#291
Tux said:
It would also dramatically change how coaches recruit and who they recruit to their schools.
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Here's the rub on guaranteed scholarships...

You have to assume 'performance' would be one of the criteria for scholarship retention. In the current system, we've already said (and I believe everyone agreed) that a kid who doesn't put in the effort could/should have their scholarship pulled. Who makes that judgment if they start issuing guaranteed scholarships? The coach making $3M/year with his job on the line? Wouldn't it be easy to fabricate a 'lack of effort' to make room for a kid with more talent?

I think it opens the door for litigation by the kids and (more) abuse of the system by the coaching staff/schools. I would be shocked to see it happen.
 
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#292
#292
LebanonVolunteer said:
I would guess for me it comes down to what I consider succeeding student athlete wise and what you view it as. Obviously we see it very differently.
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It's really pretty simple, actually-- and I heavily inferred it in my previous responses:

"Is your quality of play such that you compete for your spot against current competition and the projections of recruits who want to fill it? Not even as a starter, but on the 2-3 deep roster."

I'll make it even more plain. "Have you proven that it's not better for the team to replace you?"

Kids get recruited over all the time. It's better for them to be told so honestly, and given the opportunity to produce somewhere else. I promise you, it'll happen after the lights go out and they're in the real world.

Note that I didn't miss your reference to student-athlete. I'll assent and ask you to recognize a reference to student-athlete.
 
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#293
#293
Like I have said a million times. It would be a miracle if every commit we have sticks. Some will decommit on their on. Some will not have the grades. Some may be asked to look around. We will not pass on any top talent at any position. This is the real world. If someone better comes along they may take your spot. Butch knows what he is doing.
 
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#294
#294
k-town_king said:
Like I have said a million times. It would be a miracle if every commit we have sticks. Some will decommit on there on. Some will not have the grades. Some may be asked to look around. We will not pass on any top talent at any position. This is the real world. If someone better comes along they may take your spot. Butch knows what he is doing.
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I agree that Butch knows what he is doing. With Riley leaving, we needed 2 QBs in the 2015 class. Butch got us 2 good ones who may both be EE guys.

IMO, job well done Butch. :)
 
#295
#295
LebanonVolunteer said:
I agree that Butch knows what he is doing. With Riley leaving, we needed 2 QBs in the 2015 class. Butch got us 2 good ones who may both be EE guys.

IMO, job well done Butch. :)
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If you want to discuss a specific player you are obsessed with let's go to his thread. I am talking in general. If Butch is still recruiting players at positions he has commits at he thinks we need them. We won't turn any top guys away no matter the position they play. Room will be created and the fat will be trimmed. I don't care who gets their feeling hurt. I want the best players available regardless of who has already committed.
 
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#296
#296
k-town_king said:
If you want to discuss a specific player you are obsessed with let's go to his thread. I am talking in general. If Butch is still recruiting players at positions he has commits at he thinks we need them. We won't turn any top guys away no matter the position they play. Room will be created and the fat will be trimmed. I don't care who gets their feeling hurt. I want the best players available regardless of who has already committed.
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Did this guy just tell me what I can discuss in my thread? WTH! :)

Butch will recruit EVERY position through NSD. Yes, even if he has absolutely NO intention of taking anymore kids at that position. That is part of recruiting.
 
#298
#298
k-town_king said:
Just a suggestion. This is the NUMBERS thread. The reason this was created was to discuss numbers? Right? Not a specific player.
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You will note that my comment contained no specific recruit names at all. Just discussion on the fact we have 2 QBs committed. In reality, it was numbers talk. :loco:
 
#299
#299
The numbers crunch will preclude Butch from accepting any new commitments at QB, RB, TE unless someone at one of those positions de-commits. He will continue to recruit them and slow play them, but he will not accept anyone at those positions.

We have too many positions of need that MUST be filled. We can not beat the Alabamas, LSUs, and UGAs of the SEC by singing more QBs, RBs and not recruiting guys in the trenches.
 
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#300
#300
How many kids are really run off these days? Like, they want to stay, but the coach actually pulls the 'ship?

It's very easy to make a kid want to transfer.

"Hey, son, I know you're a great kid, but we've got 4 guys in front of you on the depth chart, and to be honest - you're probably not going to play very much if at all."

Who would stick around after that?

We all want to think of these kids as VFL's and that they would always "Give their all for Tennessee", but let's face it - these guys want to play.

Also, I don't know why this is surprising to some folks - but you don't win Championships by being the nice guy.
 
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