The "Occupy" Rallies

#251
#251
rjd970, many on the left have waged war against manufacturing, oil, coal, and other production/resource related industries for years. I would be willing to wager that most of the people in this protest would advocate even more strict regulations of those things...

... then out of the other sides of their mouths they want to complain about a lack of good jobs and corporate investment in the domestic economy.

In essence, those holding these left wing ideals created this problem and now they protest the consequences.
 
#252
#252
rjd970 said:
I agree with some of the message (anti-lobbying, etc) of what they are protesting, but at the same time these people need to stop whining and go get jobs. We're on the same page with the class warfare garbage they tend to spew.
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The criticism of the relationship between politicians and the finance industry (and to a more imprecise degree big corporations, generally) seems to be the common thread for the protests.

Even if one were to concede your point that a lot of the protestors could get some kind of job if they really wanted to, but are unreasonably holding out for something else, that still does not answer the bigger complaint, which is that the game is rigged.

This complaint has come up before in other contexts. It will come up again. Generally speaking, if people are doing "okay" in their own lives, they sarcastically comment about how government gets lobbied for big deals, that sort of thing. But when you have a stagnant economy and a lot of people suffering, and especially when that is going on while some people are showing absolutely astounding levels of greed, then folks are going to rally and protest.

This really is not a Democrat or Republican issue, as much as it is a populist issue. Plenty of Democrats are in bed with the corporate interests, as well. Heck, Obama & Co. were all for TARP and bailouts. It may get spun by one side or the other as more favorable to them, but in reality both parties need to take note of this.
 
#253
#253
sjt18 said:
rjd970, many on the left have waged war against manufacturing, oil, coal, and other production/resource related industries for years. I would be willing to wager that most of the people in this protest would advocate even more strict regulations of those things...

... then out of the other sides of their mouths they want to complain about a lack of good jobs and corporate investment in the domestic economy.

In essence, those holding these left wing ideals created this problem and now they protest the consequences.
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You associate the notion of criticizing big business as always a "left wing ideal." You are focusing on the zanies you want to because it reinforces your sarcasm, but you are not listening to what is really being said by the main group.

Its not left or right nearly as much as it is the all-too cozy relationship between big business and government institutions. Its not nearly as much about "where's mine" as it is "how come the top always make out okay while the rest of us hardly ever do?"

The complaint is that the game is rigged. And it is. You have said so many times yourself.
 
#254
#254
I love how all college kids get lumped into all this. I'm about as liberal a person as you can find at UTK, but these protests piss me off. I'll tell you why these kids can't find jobs, because they're annoying bratty tools with an extremely warped view of reality. If they want jobs then appeal to employers, don't run around protesting corporations on national TV.
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#255
#255
Brewerw said:
I love how all college kids get lumped into all this. I'm about as liberal a person as you can find at UTK, but these protests piss me off. I'll tell you why these kids can't find jobs, because they're annoying bratty tools with an extremely warped view of reality. If they want jobs then appeal to employers, don't run around protesting corporations on national TV.
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Unemployment is what has made the issue so acute and is personally motivating for many to actually show up.

But don't ignore what is really going on here, which is the accurate perception that, in the end, Washington D.C. has become an extension of the corporate board rooms.
 
#256
#256
lawgator1 said:
Unemployment is what has made the issue so acute and is personally motivating for many to actually show up.

But don't ignore what is really going on here, which is the accurate perception that, in the end, Washington D.C. has become an extension of the corporate board rooms.
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fine, but does any of that justify defecating on police cars and vandalizing private businesses?
 
#258
#258
lawgator1 said:
Unemployment is what has made the issue so acute and is personally motivating for many to actually show up.

But don't ignore what is really going on here, which is the accurate perception that, in the end, Washington D.C. has become an extension of the corporate board rooms.
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Has become? It always has been and always will be. That doesn't mean anything though. Virtually anyone with the right motivation, intelligence, and charisma is able to make it to the top. While these OWSers may think they're making an actual difference, they're really just wasting precious hours of their productive life. Go do some community service if you wanna make a difference. Very few people will ever side with protectors, regardless of how just their cause is. Just look at the GOP's so far succesful strategy with Obama. People hate change, even if it will improve their lives.
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#259
#259
Brewerw said:
I love how all college kids get lumped into all this. I'm about as liberal a person as you can find at UTK, but these protests piss me off. I'll tell you why these kids can't find jobs, because they're annoying bratty tools with an extremely warped view of reality. If they want jobs then appeal to employers, don't run around protesting corporations on national TV.
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These are not the kids that should be protesting this sort of thing. The ones that should are still actively pursuing jobs.

lawgator1 said:
Unemployment is what has made the issue so acute and is personally motivating for many to actually show up.

But don't ignore what is really going on here, which is the accurate perception that, in the end, Washington D.C. has become an extension of the corporate board rooms.
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Yes.
 
#260
#260
Brewerw said:
Has become? It always has been and always will be. That doesn't mean anything though. Virtually anyone with the right motivation, intelligence, and charisma is able to make it to the top. While these OWSers may think they're making an actual difference, they're really just wasting precious hours of their productive life. Go do some community service if you wanna make a difference. Very few people will ever side with protectors, regardless of how just their cause is. Just look at the GOP's so far succesful strategy with Obama. People hate change, even if it will improve their lives.
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That's why I said a few posts before that the issue has come up before and will again. When things are relatively good for everyone, its just a fact of political lifer that we accept because, by and large it doesn't affect our every day lives to the point that we want to go protest it.

But when things get bad enough, for long enough, and especially when there is such disparity in the good fortune of the top versus the misfortune of the middle class on down, this is what is going to happen.
 
#261
#261
lawgator1 said:
No, of course not.
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well guess what, those actions are becoming the face of this movement.

say what you will about the Tea Party, they did not become defined by their lunatic fringe despite the best efforts of people like you. The OWS is defined by it's fringe, perhaps because, at it's core, the OWS is little more than the anti-war movement of a few years ago.
 
#262
#262
MG1968 said:
well guess what, those actions are becoming the face of this movement.

say what you will about the Tea Party, they did not become defined by their lunatic fringe despite the best efforts of people like you. The OWS is defined by it's fringe, perhaps because, at it's core, the OWS is little more than the anti-war movement of a few years ago.
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They are the "face" of the movement because the GOP has knee-jerk reacted to make it about them. Its not nearly as partisan as it is being made out to be. Fox is basically 24/7 mocking them because they don't get it, at all.

Its not a pro-Democrat thing. Not remotely.
 
#263
#263
Brewerw said:
Has become? It always has been and always will be. That doesn't mean anything though. Virtually anyone with the right motivation, intelligence, and charisma is able to make it to the top. While these OWSers may think they're making an actual difference, they're really just wasting precious hours of their productive life. Go do some community service if you wanna make a difference. Very few people will ever side with protectors, regardless of how just their cause is. Just look at the GOP's so far succesful strategy with Obama. People hate change, even if it will improve their lives.
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there is nothing new to what Obama has proposed that hasn't already been tried and been determined to fail. Just look at Greece and the rest of the Euro-zone.
 
#264
#264
lawgator1 said:
That's why I said a few posts before that the issue has come up before and will again. When things are relatively good for everyone, its just a fact of political lifer that we accept because, by and large it doesn't affect our every day lives to the point that we want to go protest it.

But when things get bad enough, for long enough, and especially when there is such disparity in the good fortune of the top versus the misfortune of the middle class on down, this is what is going to happen.
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Right, I understood you. What I'm trying to say is there's not a country in history that isn't corrupt in this way. It's how people work.
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#265
#265
lawgator1 said:
They are the "face" of the movement because the GOP has knee-jerk reacted to make it about them. Its not nearly as partisan as it is being made out to be. Fox is basically 24/7 mocking them because they don't get it, at all.

Its not a pro-Democrat thing. Not remotely.
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then whoever is leading the OWS needs to distance themselves from the SEIU, AFL-CIO, WFP, and other organizations traditionally allied with the democrat party
 
#266
#266
LG, back your point that the wealthy are getting wealthier? I know it's tried and true class warfare tripe, but give it a swing.

Before you start, it's shat.
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#267
#267
Brewerw said:
Right, I understood you. What I'm trying to say is there's not a country in history that isn't corrupt in this way. It's how people work.
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That's true, but in the last decade or so we've kind of perfected it over here in the US of A.
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#268
#268
BigPapaVol said:
LG, back your point that the wealthy are getting wealthier? I know it's tried and true class warfare tripe, but give it a swing.

Before you start, it's shat.
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I shall go find some charts if I can, but have seen a number showing the top 5 percent in last two decades has seen substantial growth in real terms income whereas the rest of us gave been stagnant, at best.
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#269
#269
MG1968 said:
there is nothing new to what Obama has proposed that hasn't already been tried and been determined to fail. Just look at Greece and the rest of the Euro-zone.
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I'm not even talking social programs. Conservatives in America pretend the wealthy are extremely burdened by taxes when in reality we taxes our wealthy far less than most developed countriesx Most conservatives realistically should support tax cuts for the middle and lower class and raising taxes on the wealthy, but they're too afraid taxing the rich will bring our country to it's knees.
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#270
#270
Brewerw said:
I'm not even talking social programs. Conservatives in America pretend the wealthy are extremely burdened by taxes when in reality we taxes our wealthy far less than most developed countriesx Most conservatives realistically should support tax cuts for the middle and lower class and raising taxes on the wealthy, but they're too afraid taxing the rich will bring our country to it's knees.
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or they just don't believe that what one person earns actually belongs to another
 
#271
#271
Brewerw said:
I'm not even talking social programs. Conservatives in America pretend the wealthy are extremely burdened by taxes when in reality we taxes our wealthy far less than most developed countriesx Most conservatives realistically should support tax cuts for the middle and lower class and raising taxes on the wealthy, but they're too afraid taxing the rich will bring our country to it's knees.
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many in the GOP and the right in general are in favor of flattening the tax rate and eliminating deductions and loopholes.

the big lie here is the one about "paying their fair share". 15% capital gains tax on $50 million is a helluva lot more than 35% income tax on $55k, in terms of real revenue collected. You can piss and moan all you want about the perception brought on by the disparity in the percentages, but when you start looking at the actual amounts paid, it will open your eyes.
 
#272
#272
BigPapaVol said:
LG, back your point that the wealthy are getting wealthier? I know it's tried and true class warfare tripe, but give it a swing.

Before you start, it's shat.
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Don't kid yourself, all things equal, it's far easier to make money once you have it.
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#273
#273
Brewerw said:
Don't kid yourself, all things equal, it's far easier to make money once you have it.
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In part because, when you do, you've got the dough to hire the lobbyists and make the "contributions" that help you do even better.
 
#274
#274
BigPapaVol said:
LG, back your point that the wealthy are getting wealthier? I know it's tried and true class warfare tripe, but give it a swing.

Before you start, it's shat.
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muschump will have an easier time proving the Tea Party is racist
 
#275
#275
I miss the good old days when LG warned us that politicians using fear and divisive rhetoric were inciting discontent and potential violence. I guess when it's his guy doing it then we have a legit reaction that should be supported not mocked or ignored.
 
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