The official UT QB controversy thread

[sjt18]

I have been praying for the inner gamer in Worley that helped him achieve the Gatorade Player of the Year award would finally come out.....he just can't seem to harness it though.

When did you want it to come out? Practice proves nothing with regard to that. He hasn't been in real game action since he was a Fr being thrown into a very rough situation because the JUCO Sr ahead of him couldn't get it done.

 

[DD4ME]

Lastly when you have a clear cut starter there is never some drawn out "competition" up until 2 weeks before kick off. This competition some speak of is very valid the root of it though I think some are in denial over. That is Butch needs something > Worley today.

 

[DD4ME]

When did you want it to come out? Practice proves nothing with regard to that. He hasn't been in real game action since he was a Fr being thrown into a very rough situation because the JUCO Sr ahead of him couldn't get it done.

I expect a 3rd year player with SEC starts to garner his coaches praise long before now. Yes he's "it" for now but coach apparently isn't above dragging out a competition with true freshman because "it" is lacking.
JMO.

 

[P.O.T.S. VOL]

I don't see how someone can predict that at all. If Worley looks horrible at OR and it starts to be a blow out and another QB comes in and looks great then I doubt Worley starts against FL. We'll all see. If it was as clear cut that Worley was anything more than the defacto starter due to his seniority then you'd hear more about his leadership, etc. I've not heard one player give an interview making it sound like he's the starter or the leader either. JMO.

Yes Worley is your defacto starter right now. Time will tell if he keeps it. I'm doubting he can for multiple reasons.

Dude, LOL, save your ranting and raving for something else. it was a joke. Go back and read "burgers" response. Calm down everything will be ok.

It was a joke about the math breakdown.

 

[P.O.T.S. VOL]

It looks like we're starting to practice the same math that Nick Saban does.

And Dooley...

 

[ptclaus98]

"Regardless of the situation around him".... come on, you are MUCH smarter than that. What's with the hate? Give the guy a chance.

I did. He was horrible his freshman year. Mediocre last year, and went back to being horrible this spring and is now horrible this fall.


Hate has nothing to do with it. When is he going to magic into a serviceable QB? He can't even complete 50 percent of his passes against a mediocre defense and he's supposed to be someone who can get us to 6 wins? Even Crompton was more accurate in scrimmages in 2008.

 

[ptclaus98]

I have been praying for the inner gamer in Worley that helped him achieve the Gatorade Player of the Year award would finally come out.....he just can't seem to harness it though.

He won Gatorade Player of the year because he was in a system built to make him look good carving up inferior high school teams. He was good enough for that but it takes much more than that to just tread water in major college football. Just take a look at the latest QB's on that list and you'll see a trail of failed expectations.

 

[sjt18]

I expect a 3rd year player with SEC starts to garner his coaches praise long before now. .

Come on DD. Think that through. You really expect the coach to give out all of his thoughts on a QB competition in pressers? Don't you think it pretty likely that Jones is giving each of these QB's exactly what he thinks they need to keep them focused on getting better... again in the context of who is getting reps with the 1's?

I believe this IS a real competition. We aren't used to it because Fulmer seldom recruited the position well enough to have a QB competition. Crompton was the only option for Kiffin. Bray took over from the guy who was supposed to keep the seat warm for him. Worley came in as a guy to develop. He only avoided a RS because Simms was so, so bad.

Yes he's "it" for now but coach apparently isn't above dragging out a competition with true freshman because "it" is lacking.
JMO

He is giving the Fr their shot just like he said he would. Peterman got his in the spring. Worley has continued to be #1 throughout. It has nothing to do with dragging anything out. This is an open competition. Worley appears to be leading. Jones will announce at the point where he feels he needs to concentrate the #1 reps on the starter. The longer it "drags out"... the more likely it is that Worley is still the starter.


No one... NO ONE... has any idea how any of these guys will handle the job when its a real shooting war. Worley could come out and collapse... but so could any of the other 3.

I personally think Worley or possibly Peterman will start. I do not think either of the Fr will based on what we know so far. I expect either Worley or Peterman to do just fine.

Jones HAS extended QB competitions into the season before and has managed those situations reasonably well IIRC. I would not be surprised if Peterman or one of the Fr if they end up #2 gets a series while the games are still competitive.

 

[sjt18]

He won Gatorade Player of the year because he was in a system built to make him look good carving up inferior high school teams. He was good enough for that but it takes much more than that to just tread water in major college football. Just take a look at the latest QB's on that list and you'll see a trail of failed expectations.

He played for one of the best teams in SC and in the most competitive division. He took command of a nationally televised game vs Clowney's team and won it in the second half. You might could make a case that Peterman played against better competition or that Dobbs played against relatively equal competition. Ferguson played against inferior competition compared to the others.

Worley may not have "it". He may not be the guy. But your declarations and ones like it are way premature. When he did start, he showed courage that Simms never showed. I am concerned about his habit of dropping the ball a little before throwing it but he had no problem getting the ball out even then.

Again, what is your problem with Worley? Why not actually let him fail before declaring him a failure?

 

[TheThrill]

I remember CBJ saying one of the main attributes he was looking for in his QB is being the alpha dog. Now just going off of limited practice clips and player interviews, Worley doesn't seem to fit that description. That being said I can't really say Peterman does either, although in the post practice interviews he seems a little more engaged. The Freshmen I have no idea at all. The other main factor he said he was looking for was taking care of the ball, and I just haven't seen enough to know but I'm sure the coaches have.

 

[ptclaus98]

He played for one of the best teams in SC and in the most competitive division. He took command of a nationally televised game vs Clowney's team and won it in the second half. You might could make a case that Peterman played against better competition or that Dobbs played against relatively equal competition. Ferguson played against inferior competition compared to the others.

Worley may not have "it". He may not be the guy. But your declarations and ones like it are way premature. When he did start, he showed courage that Simms never showed. I am concerned about his habit of dropping the ball a little before throwing it but he had no problem getting the ball out even then.

Again, what is your problem with Worley? Why not actually let him fail before declaring him a failure?

My problem with Worley? Give me a break. The evidence is there to show that he's not the guy. I'm not grasping at straws here. He is poor right now. He was poor in the spring. He was poor last year. And he was poor in his freshman year. You're treating this situation exactly how you treated the situation with Dooley. There's always an excuse for poor performance with you.

 

[gunner]

FTR no one named a single division 1 JR/SR QB that struggled to lock down the starting gig and went on to success. Peyton was the lone response and he was a 3rd string true freshman. His most likely "equivalent" on this roster is Ferguson.

I don't know if your old enough or not to remember, but prior to Payton Manning, in Fulmer's first season, Heath Schuler was in a similar position as Worley, he battled Jerry Colquitt all camp and into the first game of the season both played in the victory. Schuler went on to win the job, won a lot of games at UT, and then he left after his Junior season to enter the NFL Draft.

Prior to that Andy Kelly battled Sterling Henton until the middle of the season to win the starting job at UT. Kelly then went to start the next two seasons, and was a decent SEC QB.

Prior to that Jeff Francis battled Randy Sanders for the job well into the season before taking control of the position.

Does this help?

Gunner

 

[sjt18]

I did. He was horrible his freshman year.

The simple answer to this is "no". You can believe what you like but he started two games as a VERY green Fr while Bray was injured. In that brief time, he played better than Simms did at any point during his UT career and better than Bray played once he came back.

Mediocre last year,

He hardly played last year- only in mop up with 2nd teamers. You really think that's proof of anything?

and went back to being horrible this spring and is now horrible this fall.

According to who? Jones has challenged him but has come nowhere close to saying that... and he continues to hold #1 over guys Jones has complimented. So what is YOUR proof that he has been horrible this fall?

Spring? Please list the top flight WR's that participated in spring ball again...

Hate has nothing to do with it. When is he going to magic into a serviceable QB? He can't even complete 50 percent of his passes against a mediocre defense and he's supposed to be someone who can get us to 6 wins? Even Crompton was more accurate in scrimmages in 2008.

I've read your posts for awhile and you smarter than this. You and I as fans cannot draw conclusions from practice and scrimmage stats. We don't know what the coaches are doing. Sometimes they intentionally put their starter in a position to fail. Ainge had a horrible spring before his best year. In fact, many (including a younger, more foolish me) were clamoring for Crompton to start and making predictions that if he didn't that he would be the starter sometime in the season.

Bray was absolutely awful last spring, remember?

Again, Worley may not be the guy. But the stuff you point to is not proof of that. If anything, his courage AND performance as a Fr suggest that with two additional years of physical development... he just might be the guy.

 

[sjt18]

My problem with Worley? Give me a break. The evidence is there to show that he's not the guy.

No. It simply isn't. He may not be... but that evidence is still to be had.

I'm not grasping at straws here. He is poor right now. He was poor in the spring. He was poor last year. And he was poor in his freshman year. You're treating this situation exactly how you treated the situation with Dooley. There's always an excuse for poor performance with you.

Yeah. You could say that but it is nothing like an "excuse for poor performance". It is allowing the poor performance to occur before punishing someone for it. It is called using intelligence rather than emotional whim to determine whether someone can or cannot perform.

I have seen practice info like this come out on QB's not just with the Vols but elsewhere. Guys in the NFL who go on to have great seasons passing often struggle in pre-seasons games as they work on something that is not a strength.

These "struggles" could be that he is truly neck and neck with these other guys. OR it could be that he has already proven he can do things that they are working on and has moved on to something more challenging.

Without knowing what you do, I would venture that I have fired more people for performance than you have. I have quantified problems, explained the standard, then held them to it. NO EXCUSES.

 

[ptclaus98]

According to who? Jones has challenged him but has come nowhere close to saying that... and he continues to hold #1 over guys Jones has complimented. So what is YOUR proof that he has been horrible this fall?

He's a junior with not only game experience but conference game experience and he's not separated himself from a redshirt freshman and two true freshmen, while running against a defense that has little pass rush and mediocre at best DBs. Him being the no.1 changes very little about his poor performance this fall. It is simply an indictment on the abilities and aptitude of the 3 chasing him.

 

[sjt18]

I remember CBJ saying one of the main attributes he was looking for in his QB is being the alpha dog. Now just going off of limited practice clips and player interviews, Worley doesn't seem to fit that description. That being said I can't really say Peterman does either, although in the post practice interviews he seems a little more engaged. The Freshmen I have no idea at all. The other main factor he said he was looking for was taking care of the ball, and I just haven't seen enough to know but I'm sure the coaches have.

IIRC, it was reported that Worley is considered a team leader by his teammates. That does not mean he's the kind of "alpha dog" Jones is looking for... but he isn't a wilting flower either.

Agree on Peterman doing better in interviews but that may not mean anything in the locker room for either guy.

 

[sjt18]

He's a junior with not only game experience but conference game experience and he's not separated himself from a redshirt freshman and two true freshmen, while running against a defense that has little pass rush and mediocre at best DBs. Him being the no.1 changes very little about his poor performance this fall. It is simply an indictment on the abilities and aptitude of the 3 chasing him.

Good grief. Jones has explained this competition himself. He wants to create as much pressure as he can. He was NOT going to declare a starter and have guys settle into their roles. He also said the Fr would get reps this fall at every position to prove what they could do because the others had had spring.

The fact that neither of the Fr have taken reps from Worley and that Peterman continues to run almost exclusively with the 2's strongly indicates that none of them have closed much ground with Worley.

I keep trying to give you credit... but maybe I am giving too much. You cannot say any of these QB's are bad based on what we know from the limited info we have.

The coaches are pushing these guys harder than Dooley did or Fulmer. They are stretching them to the breaking point. When they start to get ready for the season which will probably be this week, they will back down to the things they can do and do well. Fulmer, Kiffin, and Dooley have all done this. Jones seems to have pressured and stretched these guys a lot more... but failures at the margin don't prove there isn't a core of things they do well.

He even said something similar explicitly the other night. When asked about some failure he had induced under pressure, he answered that "that's why we practice".

 

[sjt18]

Oh, btw, I am the one who has consistently said here that six wins would be underachievement with this roster and schedule... I guess that's me creating excuses for poor performance again, huh?

And no, it isn't because I do not like Jones. I do like him and believe he will win 7 or 8.

 

[DD4ME]

I remember CBJ saying one of the main attributes he was looking for in his QB is being the alpha dog. Now just going off of limited practice clips and player interviews, Worley doesn't seem to fit that description. That being said I can't really say Peterman does either, although in the post practice interviews he seems a little more engaged. The Freshmen I have no idea at all. The other main factor he said he was looking for was taking care of the ball, and I just haven't seen enough to know but I'm sure the coaches have.

I think ball security and Worley having SEC experience are the only 2 reasons he's our starter. The praise related to those uncoachable attributes like being Alpha and commanding the pocket have not been bestowed upon Worley by players or coaches. Yet they have come out for others, mainly Ferguson.

 

[DD4ME]

Oh, btw, I am the one who has consistently said here that six wins would be underachievement with this roster and schedule... I guess that's me creating excuses for poor performance again, huh?

And no, it isn't because I do not like Jones. I do like him and believe he will win 7 or 8.

You and I are in agreement on this. That's why I think he's got Worley on a short leash and is working like heck to bring his competition up to speed.

 

[DD4ME]

No. It simply isn't. He may not be... but that evidence is still to be had.



Yeah. You could say that but it is nothing like an "excuse for poor performance". It is allowing the poor performance to occur before punishing someone for it. It is called using intelligence rather than emotional whim to determine whether someone can or cannot perform.

I have seen practice info like this come out on QB's not just with the Vols but elsewhere. Guys in the NFL who go on to have great seasons passing often struggle in pre-seasons games as they work on something that is not a strength.

These "struggles" could be that he is truly neck and neck with these other guys. OR it could be that he has already proven he can do things that they are working on and has moved on to something more challenging.

Without knowing what you do, I would venture that I have fired more people for performance than you have. I have quantified problems, explained the standard, then held them to it. NO EXCUSES.

If you have a closer you don't jerk him around until the close of camp. Even if you did a real closer makes it obvious it's not even a competition. The times you do that are when you are giving a non-closer his final shot to put up or shut up. Several seem to think he will. Good if he does. I'd rather have experience back there. I'm not seeing the confidence of a winner out of Worley though in anything I've read or watched.

 

[sjt18]

You and I are in agreement on this. That's why I think he's got Worley on a short leash and is working like heck to bring his competition up to speed.

I'm just trying to take all this into perspective and not get hung up on things that have proven very often not to be indicators.

I think UT has four good candidates with talent. I like them all for different reasons but believe at the end of the day Worley is likely to keep/win the job and likely to do well.

I do NOT worry about Jones developing some sentimental loyalty that would allow one player to hurt the team. Fulmer used to do that. (You stay - You play).

Jones will yank the cord on the starter whoever it is if they aren't managing and moving the offense the way he wants it. That is consistent with his past practices.


Did you listen to the interviews the other night? Two comments caught my attention that relate to this discussion. One was when Tiny said that they showed very little of the offense. People here are handwringing over Worley's performance... but who is hurt most by a limited playbook? The guy who has the best grasp on the playbook.

The other was when Peterman was asked about the coaches taking the non-contact jerseys off the Fr. He said that he would have liked to have been live but that he guessed he was OK with the coaches saving him for real games. To me, that was either a slip of the tongue and the competition isn't quite as wholesome as we've been led to believe OR... his feeling from inside the program and team room is that the Fr are not going to start.

 

[sjt18]

If you have a closer you don't jerk him around until the close of camp.

Things that Jones has said indicate that is not his mentality. He does not see it as jerking anyone around. He is making them compete every moment.

Even if you did a real closer makes it obvious it's not even a competition.

I think very honestly that if one of the other guys passed Worley then Jones would give them the job. But the actions... do not suggest anyone has. He's still with the 1's first and the most.

This is camp. If this is still happening next week then we have a really big problem. It is about time to settle down into game week prep types of practices. He may prep two guys to take live reps. I think I would and am pretty sure he has in the past.

The times you do that are when you are giving a non-closer his final shot to put up or shut up. Several seem to think he will. Good if he does. I'd rather have experience back there. I'm not seeing the confidence of a winner out of Worley though in anything I've read or watched.

But the proof just like with a coach or anyone else is what happens when they are "the guy" and the shooting starts.

And I think you may be assuming something about Jones that does not seem to fit in his coaching philosophy... that someone can "close" a job. From what he has said, he would like to have battles like this at every position. If his pattern holds true, the competition will not stop... ever. Someone will be named the starter but their job will be no more secure than it was before. If they don't perform, they won't continue to start. He yanked Munchie Legaux in the 8th game last year. His stat line wasn't bad... and his team was 5-2 with one loss to L'ville in OT.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "closer" with Jones. You have to prove you deserve it every day. A big ol' dose of Butch Jones would have probably made Bray a 1st round draft choice instead of an UFA.

 

[trampas2bad]

If it turns out, all other things considered, that the passing game of all four candidates is relatively equal. Sometimes they're good and sometimes they're not, then CBJ will pick the QB that can best move the ball with his feet; freshman or whatever. This is the logical reason he has not yet named a starter. He's waiting to see who jukes the best.

 

[DD4ME]

If it turns out, all other things considered, that the passing game of all four candidates is relatively equal. Sometimes they're good and sometimes they're not, then CBJ will pick the QB that can best move the ball with his feet; freshman or whatever. This is the logical reason he has not yet named a starter. He's waiting to see who jukes the best.

I can agree with this. Which doesn't bode we'll for Worley. I've said too much already on this topic. I'm ready for the season to start and whoever is the starter I'm rooting for them.